Talk:Death (proto-punk band)

Oldest or youngest?

Um, how can David Hackney be both the youngest and the eldest of the brothers?

"'The youngest of the brothers, guitarist David, pushed the group...'"

"The following day, eldest sibling David found a discarded guitar..."

Which is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shunn (talk • contribs) (20:03, 20 October 2009)

Music critic Peter Margasak is quoted verbatim in the first paragraph so what he said is reflected appropriately, but he was wrong about David being the youngest. According to the New York Times article (currently in footnote #1) and other sources that mention their ages, David was oldest. I have added a statement that Margasak was incorrect just before his quote. --DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 19:13, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Punk band?

I propose that this article be moved to simply Death (band) since, while they might be called "proto-punk," they were not a punk band. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 21:00, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

This is absolutely a punk band. The term "protopunk" band is inaccurate. According to the page on protopunk, it's defined as being an influence on punk bands. Since this band was unknown, but has a punk sound (at least according to the New York Times, Rolling Stone, and other cultural definition makers), that would make them a punk band, meaning (punk band) or (band) would be ideal, but an influencing (protopunk band) is indeed the least accurate option.--WildElf (talk) 04:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I 100% agree. NorthCentralKing (talk) 04:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

If you look at the rather lengthy disambiguation page for "death", you'll find that there's an article on Death (metal band). I guess the fact that there are two bands named Death -- who knew? -- makes the name of this article necessary. AroundLAin80Days (talk) 14:59, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

As a fan of THIS Death, I don't think they're punk, but that seems to be the consensus among critics and historians who feel the urge to categorize everything. (IMO they're solid classic 70s Detroit Rock, but that's not an accepted "category.") What we have now for Death (punk band) and Death (metal band) will have to be the optimal solution per Wikipedia precedent. --DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 19:18, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

The reason that these critics and historians are using the term, "punk," to describe Death is not just for the sake of categorization. They are identifying a living musical legacy that pre-dates 1975. Their writings are completely grounded in sound historical facts and musicology. It is a joy to see Death finally reciving appreciation for their awesome and groundbreaking music. Check out the documentary Death: Punk Before There Was Punk on DVD. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in music. You will be deeply moved by the story of this band. It is a classic American saga not to be missed. Garagepunk66 (talk) 00:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Those critics are delusional. In no way, manner or form were these guys punk. Nor did they define themselves as such. There were plenty of other bands predating these guys that were punk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.136.106.60 (talk) 14:15, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

To echo Garagepunk66's comment above, the term protopunk denotes bands that had a punk ethos and sound prior to the coalescence of punk rock and punk subculture as something people self-identified with. Protopunk bands—like the Monks, Stooges, MC5, Modern Lovers, Rocket From The Tombs, etc.—are championed by self-identifying punk rockers as major influences. The band called Death has been added to that canon. Morganfitzp (talk) 01:44, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

With regard to the Article Title, I suggest that it be Death (Detroit band). My precedent is that there are two "Nirvana"-named bands: one UK, one American. Same with "Muse", I believe. StevePrutz (talk) 18:30, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

That could be a clever way to avoid the whole genre question. NorthCentralKing (talk) 00:57, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I am sure that everyone has their own definitions of what punk is and when/where they think it began. Personally, I am one who thinks that it started in the mid 60s with the garage rock bands (and that its actual prototypes were from the mid 50s-early 60s), but I realize this is a minority point of view. In the early 70s, the term "punk rock" was used by certain influential rock critics, such as Dave Marsh, Lester Bangs, Lenny Kaye, Greg Shaw, "Metal" Mike Saunders, and others, to describe the garage bands of the 60s, as well as more recent bands of that time, following in their footsteps. This is a matter of historical fact. I do not necessarily advocate that Wiki change its major categories or period definitions at this time--in the larger sense, we must go with the prevailing nomenclature. But, the most knowledgeable editors are aware of the things I have mentioned, and often take them into account when wording passages (to provide accurate historical narratives and explanations).

If you listen to a lot of the 60s garage bands, particularly if you get really deep into the genre, you will find a staggering amount of examples of authentic punk from that era--but refreshingly devoid of the four-letter words and mindless hate that came later. You will come to realize that punk had perhaps the most innocent beginning of any rock form--in the family garage. And this is how Death came to be. They may have been the last true "neighbor-next-door" garage band of the old school, yet one of the first 70s punk bands. So they stand at the crossroads of what I consider to be early and modern punk. But, right now pre-CBGB's bands are usually classified as "protopunk" (and Wiki, therefore, has to follow the prevailing norm). Still, I'd love to see an evolution in popular thought, that fully embraces punk from earlier periods, according to its original definitions. Then, at that time, we would be able to call Death "punk" as they truly deserve. Garagepunk66 (talk) 00:39, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Well said - and I concur. Much of the "garage bands" I've heard and participated in would fall quite neatly into your take - especially being devoid of what was prevalent in the groups currently identified as "punk". It would not be hard to argue the point in my estimation. THX1136 (talk) 02:05, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Starting this talk again, I think most of the comments here are made by people who have no reliable source.

It often goes back to All Music with no author or data to quote.

Would it make sense to call it proto-punk? Does this genre even exist? We know punk rock exists and has academic documentation.

Wikipedia:Reliable sources Says that if there's no reliable source, then it should not have an article on it. This would also link towards the article Proto-punk. HannahCritter (talk) 00:14, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

This is a good take on what music classification really is, although I don't seem to really have the same knowledge of 60s garage music that you do. I'm very open to new concepts, and I think it'd be really cool to listen to those bands. Are they on Spotify, and if you could tell me their names and maybe specific songs that would be awesome. NorthCentralKing (talk) 23:55, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

How were they not Punk? They sound more Punk than the Ramones on some songs; for instance, Freakin Out bore a similarity to early 80s punk with yelling, a very fast pace, synced guitar, bass, and drums at the same rhythm(a tequnique that defines true Punk) and the lyrics closely resemble that of hardcore punk bands in the 80s. THEY WERE PUNK!!! And if they weren't, the Ramones weren't either. NorthCentralKing (talk) 04:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Death never called themselves "punk", and neither did critics or punk publications until they were 'rediscovered' in the 21st century. Death only embraced the punk genre way later, once they realized punk fans liked their music.

Nobody in the late 1970s or early 1980s called Death "punk", and they were never part of any early punk rock scenes at CBGBs, in London UK or in California. The fact remains the band broke up when David quit, and the remaining 2 brothers went towards Christian rock, then reggae.

Calling Death "punk" due to historical revisionism opens the door for other revisionist nonsense, like calling Chuck Berry's music "rap" cause of his songs' proto-rap lyrical structure. 209.239.26.198 (talk) 22:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Documentary

Seems like there should be some mention of the documentary:

http://lineout.thestranger.com/lineout/archives/2012/05/16/a-band-called-death-the-documentary

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2064713/

http://filmguide.lafilmfest.com/tixSYS/2012/xslguide/eventnote.php?EventNumber=2526 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goiter x (talk • contribs) 07:23, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to write it.Freshfighter9^talk 15:27, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

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improper reference

reference 6 "The Breakout: Reunited and revitalized, Death keep on knocking" links to the seven days website not the article being referenced I am not able to find any article by the name "the breakout: reunited and revitalized, Death keep on knocking" or any other relevant article on seven days website searching the article title "the breakout: reunited and revitalized, Death keep on knocking" has also not yielded anything if someone has/can find a relevant article to replace this reference they should do that 2601:445:101:2C50:75CE:9286:D2D0:2D4F (talk) 17:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)