Talk:Delia Webster

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Recent edits

There was a major edit that was reverted because much of it was disruptive editing - cited content replaced with uncited content, comments embedded in the article content, unhelpful and unnecessary edits, should use surname not first name, etc.

So, I'm going to summarize the items raised here - and comments:

• Intro - I am not see how the edits add value. She's primarily known as an abolitionist and teacher. There's no mention in the article that she's an artist.
• Early life
  • Benajah spelling vs. Benejah - right now the nps site isn't loading. I see that his name is spelled both ways in books and publications from this query. Added a note that it's also spelled Benajah.  Done
  • Other edits - Do you have reliable, WP:Secondary sources for the content? See WP:Citing sources - WP:ProveIt for a tool to format citations - or templates {{cite book}}, {{cite news}} or {{cite news}} for a template for citing sources, you just need to fill the appropriate fields / parameters.
• Lexington, Kentucky section:
  • edit, "she did not contact Craig again," seems inaccurate, as books about her tell us she became teacher/governess to some of Craig's children. His son traveled with Delia to Vermont and seems to have enjoyed working with Delia's father, Benajah Webster. - Do you have a source?
    • Yep, that appears to refer to the Trimble County time period - in/after 1854, versus 1845 and the time period when she was a governess (1849-1851 or more). Corrections / clarifications are  Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:36, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Kentucky Jurisprudence, - added per discussion at the bottom of the list. Done
  • her father had taken her home to Vermont to recover from the ordeal of prior months, she had been subjected to harsh treatment during incarceration. - Do you have a source?
    • I found more information about her returning to Vermont and added that content. I didn't run into content about her taking her home to recover from harsh treatment. Partly done–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:31, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
• New York section: The Eisan book indicates she was involved in the Woman's Suffrage Movement. - Do you have a page number for that? Then, it should be reworded without mention of the book and adding a citation to the sentence. See WP:Citing sources - WP:ProveIt for a tool to format citations - or, {{cite book}} for a template for citing books, you just need to fill the appropriate fields / parameters.
• Trimble County, Kentucky section:
  • I don't understand this edit [[Trimble County, Kentucky|Trimble County, .Kentucky]] - Why was this edit made with the period before Kentucky?
  • Delia was specifically threatened with "assassination" according to books and newspapers articles about her. - Do you have a specific source? She should be referred to by her surname, per WP:SURNAME.
    • Found a source, re threats against her life. Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:47, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Delia called her farm Mt. Orison, others knew it as Mt. Airy, in Trimble County, Milton, Kentucky. - Do you have a specific source?
  • She did not have the financial resources to pursue the people she believed responsible and since the county was apparently run by the slave -owners, obviously laws seem to have been on their side. They succeeded in running financially destroying her and drove her out of the state of Kentucky. - Do you have a specific source?
    • There's some detail already. What more do you think is needed?–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:47, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
• Indiana and Iowa section: The book by Eisan indicates she taught African American children at an African church school in Madison. - Do you have a page number for that?
  • Found a source. Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:47, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
• Comment about the mile marker Edit, this marker states it is a Kentucky Historical marker, not simply a highway "mile" marker. The county jail's Kentucky Historical marker states she was it's most notable resident. - Let's find a citation for the marker and this additional information.
  • I updated the info about the marker that's in the article based on the source, which calls it a Kentucky Highway Marker - and removed the number entirely. Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:20, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Regarding the marker for the county jail, yep I found that on page 223, but we don't need every factoid and the section heading is "Legacy and honors" - is this really something that is a meaningful and encyclopedic addition?–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:20, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
• Comment This honor includes a watercolor of her that hangs in the exhibit in the Kentucky Capitol building. added to "In 1996, she was honored as one of the Kentucky Women Remembered." - Let's find a citation for this and the additional information.  Done with the content based upon the source.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:05, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
• *In 2016, correspondence between this editor, a Webster family member, and the NPS, National Park Service, indicate they will now be updating their website to expand upon Delia's role in the Underground Railroad, on their Footsteps to Freedom website. - This is not encyclopedic content. Once the website is updated, additional content of encyclopedic value can be added to the article, and cited appropriately.
• *In 2016, social media accounts were developed to share Delia's story and fundraiser for a grave marker/tombstone for her unmarked grave. These accounts and Delia's Find a Grave are owned by a Webster family member, who is also this editor. The purpose is to share more information about Delia's role in the Underground Railroad. One of Delia's "followers" is Frederick Douglass' 3x GrGrandson Ken Morris, Jr. Please have consideration when editing the facts I have provided for my Great Ancestor, Delia Webster. The books and newspaper accounts referenced can be easily verified on her social media pages or easily found on the Internet. - FindaGrave is not a reliable source; it is an external link at the bottom of the page. Social media accounts are not reliable sources. Please add citations for reliable sources for any content that is added.
• Author and book title for Kentucky jurisprudence : a history of the trial of Miss Delia A. Webster at Lexington, Kentucky, Dec'r 17-21, 1844 before the Hon. Richard Buckner. That has been updated based upon the Library of Congress information at this link.  Done

–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:36, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

I am having a hard time reading the responses, so I've copied the original posting and then will try and parse out the responses.–CaroleHenson (talk) 09:02, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Recent edits - response

There was a major edit that was reverted because much of it was disruptive editing - cited content replaced with uncited content, comments embedded in the article content, unhelpful and unnecessary edits, should use surname not first name, etc.

So, I'm going to summarize the items raised here - and comments:

• Intro - I am not see how the edits add value. She's primarily known as an abolitionist and teacher. There's no mention in the article that she's an artist. Both books detail how she was
• Early life
  • Benajah spelling vs. Benejah - right now the nps site isn't loading. I see that his name is spelled both ways in books and publications from this query. Added a note that it's also spelled Benajah.  Done

Response #1: Several Sources. Eisan, 209. There were 3 men all named Benajah Webster, all spelled Benajah. The Gov. John Webster Genealogy book can be viewed on Internet Archive. It might be easier for you to view the fb page because there are screenshots of this Webster Genealogy book shown on the Facebook page titled "Delia Webster, Ugrr, Abolitionist." Basically if I cite something, I show people where the info is from, so I'm not accused of lying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

• • Other edits - Do you have reliable, WP:Secondary sources for the content? See WP:Citing sources - WP:ProveIt for a tool to format citations - or templates {{cite book}}, {{cite news}} or {{cite news}} for a template for citing sources, you just need to fill the appropriate fields / parameters.

Response #2: Eisan pg 148. Actually, both books, Eisan and Runyon detail the agreement for the "Webster Kentucky Farm Association" which had "By-Laws" several partners and investors, and a very complicated agreement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

Response #3: you don't think she deserves to be labeled as a successful "business woman," at a time when women weren't? She had no husband, (she never married) to do this real estate deal, purchase the 600 acre farm, for her, she sought investors to do this, basically sold them on the idea, sought funding, was involved in a complex legal agreement for the property, selling the crops, paying the employees and the expenses, and coping with trying to somehow manage to then do whatever she could while her property is being looted, burnt and destroyed., to the extent of her wardrobe and she was left penniless when the crops were destroyed instead of sold. She was a Business woman, please include it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

• Lexington, Kentucky section:
  • edit, "she did not contact Craig again," seems inaccurate, as books about her tell us she became teacher/governess to some of Craig's children. His son traveled with Delia to Vermont and seems to have enjoyed working with Delia's father, Benajah Webster. - Do you have a source?

Response #4 :Eisan, page 94-95, notes Census info Children living with her & a separate visit to Vermont. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

• • • Yep, that appears to refer to the Trimble County time period - in/after 1854, versus 1845 and the time period when she was a governess (1849-1851 or more). Corrections / clarifications are  Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:36, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Kentucky Jurisprudence, - added per discussion at the bottom of the list. Done
  • her father had taken her home to Vermont to recover from the ordeal of prior months, she had been subjected to harsh treatment during incarceration. - Do you have a source?
    • I found more information about her returning to Vermont and added that content. I didn't run into content about her taking her home to recover from harsh treatment. Partly done–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:31, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Response #5: Eisan book, pg. 127, I am adding a pic/screenshot of the Eisan book to the Facebook page. Actually it was extremely harsh treatment, a dark, cold, smoky room, unable to wash, comb her hair, she had only 1 set of clothes as she was not allowed to pack when arrested.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

• New York section: The Eisan book indicates she was involved in the Woman's Suffrage Movement. - Do you have a page number for that?

Response # 6: Eisan, page 167.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

Then, it should be reworded without mention of the book and adding a citation to the sentence. See WP:Citing sources - WP:ProveIt for a tool to format citations - or, {{cite book}} for a template for citing books, you just need to fill the appropriate fields / parameters.

• Trimble County, Kentucky section:
  • I don't understand this edit [[Trimble County, Kentucky|Trimble County, .Kentucky]] - Why was this edit made with the period before Kentucky?

Response #7:Unknown, I made an ERROR....I wasn't aware I have to monitor every .Period/typo, please forgive my incompetence.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

• • Delia was specifically threatened with "assassination" according to books and newspapers articles about her. - Do you have a specific source? She should be referred to by her surname, per WP:SURNAME.

Response #8: Sorry, since she's my relative I don't normally refer to them by surname, and as I've stated, I don't know the very detailed rules yet.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

• • • Found a source, re threats against her life. Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:47, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Response #9:The copy of the newspaper accounts with the dates from when it occurred actually state "assassination," you can see these copies on the fb page, "Delia Webster, Ugrr, Abolitionist." They have the newspaper name and date. I did not mention the exact name of the Facebook and Twitter pages as I didn't think that would be allowed, but that's a much easier place for you to see the pics of the original info all in one place, because I have tried very hard to show proof of everything I cite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

• • Delia called her farm Mt. Orison, others knew it as Mt. Airy, in Trimble County, Milton, Kentucky. - Do you have a specific source?

Response #10:Eisan, page 91— Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

• • She did not have the financial resources to pursue the people she believed responsible and since the county was apparently run by the slave -owners, obviously laws seem to have been on their side. They succeeded in running financially destroying her and drove her out of the state of Kentucky. - Do you have a specific source?
    • There's some detail already. What more do you think is needed?–

Response #11: Eisan, page168— Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

CaroleHenson (talk) 23:47, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

• Indiana and Iowa section: The book by Eisan indicates she taught African American children at an African church school in Madison. - Do you have a page number for that?

Response #12: Eisan,— Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

• • Found a source. Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:47, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
• Comment about the mile marker Edit, this marker states it is a Kentucky Historical marker, not simply a highway "mile" marker. The county jail's Kentucky Historical marker states she was it's most notable resident. - Let's find a citation for the marker and this additional information.
  • I updated the info about the marker that's in the article based on the source, which calls it a Kentucky Highway Marker - and removed the number entirely. Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:20, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Regarding the marker for the county jail, yep I found that on page 223, but we don't need every factoid and the section heading is "Legacy and honors" - is this really something that is a meaningful and encyclopedic addition?–

Response #13: Yes, the fact that it is a Historical — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

CaroleHenson (talk) 18:20, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment This honor includes a watercolor of her that hangs in the exhibit in the Kentucky Capitol building. added to "In 1996, she was honored as one of the Kentucky Women Remembered." - Let's find a citation for this and the additional information.  Done with the content based upon the source.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:05, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
• *In 2016, correspondence between this editor, a Webster family member, and the NPS, National Park Service, indicate they will now be updating their website to expand upon Delia's role in the Underground Railroad, on their Footsteps to Freedom website. - This is not encyclopedic content. Once the website is updated, additional content of encyclopedic value can be added to the article, and cited appropriately.

Response #14: ok, just fyi, A copy of the correspondence can be seen on the fb page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

• *In 2016, social media accounts were developed to share Delia's story and fundraiser for a grave marker/tombstone for her unmarked grave. These accounts and Delia's Find a Grave are owned by a Webster family member, who is also this editor. The purpose is to share more information about Delia's role in the Underground Railroad. One of Delia's "followers" is Frederick Douglass' 3x GrGrandson Ken Morris, Jr. Please have consideration when editing the facts I have provided for my Great Ancestor, Delia Webster. The books and newspaper accounts referenced can be easily verified on her social media pages or easily found on the Internet. - FindaGrave is not a reliable source; it is an external link at the bottom of the page. Social media accounts are not reliable sources. Please add citations for reliable sources for any content that is added.

Response #15: please note, the Find A Grave page was already listed there, I did not add it in the External Link as source, basically because I don't know how to even do that. I simply mentioned it so anyone can know that I am showing and able to provide proof of my familial relationship to her. Basically, nit's great that 2 wonderful books were written about her, and those authors obviously are entitled to be paid for their work. But since I've learned her grave is unmarked, and I guess they believe a family — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

• Author and book title for Kentucky jurisprudence : a history of the trial of Miss Delia A. Webster at Lexington, Kentucky, Dec'r 17-21, 1844 before the Hon. Richard Buckner. That has been updated based upon the Library of Congress information at this link.  Done

–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:36, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Response #16: Hello, forgive me, as I'm obviously new to this complex system and at the moment don't have time to study each symbol, [[ and ([[, combinations in order to reply exactly as you seem to require. I'm trying to reply to you asap, if I try to learn this system, and dealing with health issues, I don't know when I could reply, because of this very complicated system. I've tried to answer each item you have noted next to the item. I've used ### then put the answer you need, but have not completed the source for this info, is the books by Eisan and Prof. Runyon. Im also facebook frJust to briefly let you know...I specifically gave the info about the fb/social media pages so anyone could look there to actually see a Picture/Screenshot, some type of proof for the source. Basically I show the proof of my statement, as I understand people doubting the truth about anything nowadays. I have screenshots of the newspaper articles, which show the date, and the name of the newspaper, and came from a couple different newspaper archives. Also, just fyi, to explain further if you go to the fb page, you can see the link to the GoFundMe. There you see a donor Joyce Lotus, who is a Webster member and also Daughters of the American Revolution Joyce has a Facebook page and made a public post which tells a very detailed information of her direct relationship to Delia, just thought you might be interested, since I'm explaining everything,— Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiqueangel (talk • contribs)

I formatted the responses a bit so that it's easier to read and numbered them. My responses are below.–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Responses by item #

I've formatted this so it should be easier to respond. Just insert your comments after each item and indent using the colon, meaning your comment would start with ":" then type what you'd like. See WP:Talkpages for more information.

Early life

1. Delia's father's name. Not exactly sure what you wanted, I took a guess. I changed the spelling in the body of the article to Benajah and added to the footnote, including the mention of the genealogy book that I could view online. Facebook is not a reliable source.–CaroleHenson (talk) 09:49, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

2. Regarding Eisan pg 148. Actually, both books, Eisan and Runyon detail the agreement for the "Webster Kentucky Farm Association" which had "By-Laws" several partners and investors, and a very complicated agreement. I have no idea what the request is. The Webster Kentucky Farm Association is mentioned later in the article. Please word exactly what the content is that you'd like to add and the source and page number where the content comes from.–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:01, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

3. Regarding that she was a businesswoman, she established the farm - so it might be more appropriate to say that she was a farmer - and there are plenty of sources for that. How is that?–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:01, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Lexington, Kentucky

4. Regarding Eisan, page 94-95, notes Census info Children living with her & a separate visit to Vermont. - It sounds like you are not satisfied with the changes and additions that I've made. Would you please word the additions that you are requesting.–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:01, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

5. Regarding Response #5: Eisan book, pg. 127, I am adding a pic/screenshot of the Eisan book to the Facebook page. Actually it was extremely harsh treatment, a dark, cold, smoky room, unable to wash, comb her hair, she had only 1 set of clothes as she was not allowed to pack when arrested. If you are extrapolating from an image that she had harsh treatment, this would be original research. And, then if you are further stating that her father took her to Vermont because she needed to recover from harsh treatment, that is another instance of original research. If you want the article to state that her father took her home to Vermont to recover due to the harsh treatment that she endured in jail, then you need a source that says that. Do you have a book or another reliable secondary source that says something to that effect?–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:07, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

New York

6. Regarding she was involved in the Woman's Suffrage Movement Eisan, p. 167. That is  Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:25, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Trimble County, Kentucky

7. No problem re: the period. Regarding the use of "piping" such as [[Trimble County, Kentucky|Trimble County, Kentucky]] it only needs to be piped if you wanted to change the way it appeared. For instance, if you didn't want to show the state you could type [[Trimble County, Kentucky|Trimble County]] otherwise, it's just [[Trimble County, Kentucky]]–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:40, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

8. Re: the use of surname: No problem.–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:40, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

9. I am not sure what the point is, a source you read may have said assasination. The source I read said that there were plans made to plan to kill her and threats against her life. Since it's an encyclopedia article, the objective is not have a neutral point of view so less dramatic verbiage is preferred. So, in my opinion, it's better to go with the more neutral verbiage - the point is still clear, they wanted her dead.–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:40, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

10. Regarding Delia called her farm Mt. Orison, others knew it as Mt. Airy, in Trimble County, Milton, Kentucky. I added that Webster called the farm Mt. Orison. I don't know what you mean by others called it Mt. Airy (i.e., it was called Mt. Airy before she bought it? After her? At the same time?). Why is this important?–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:40, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

11: All you say is Eisan, page168, what is your suggested wording?–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:40, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

12. I mentioned that I found another source for that info and it's done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 11:01, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Legacy and honors

13. I added the other marker info and the source.–CaroleHenson (talk) 11:01, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

14 and 15. Doesn't look as if a response is needed.–CaroleHenson (talk) 11:01, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

16. Ok, that's interesting - and I totally understand about the learning curve. The sources are just needed because it's an encyclopedia article and the content should be based upon reliable, secondary sources. See verifiable for more information, if that would help. It has nothing to do with whether or not you, or anyone else, would be believed.–CaroleHenson (talk) 11:01, 5 April 2017 (UTC)