Talk:Delvinë

Remove the tourist link

Someone remove the tourist linkMegistias (talk) 23:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Contentious edit

This edit has no source and makes an unwarranted assumption which satisfies the conditions of WP:NOR. It says: The verifiability policy says that an inline citation to a reliable source must be provided for all quotations, and for anything challenged or likely to be challenged. There is no source and it is easily challengeable.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 02:46, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Codex, p. 60

I will give the specific quote from the original text, which appears to be slightly changed in the proccess [[1]]:

Τον ευλογημένον Ζαχαρίαν τον διεδέχθη ο Άγιος Γεννάδιος. Ύτος ήτο Σμυρναίος και αυτός αρχιδιάκονος του Ιωαννίνων, νέος τη ηλικία δεν είχεν ευχαρίστησιν να ακούη χριστιανούς να ομιλούν την αλβανική γλώσσαν. Φιλοδίκαιος όλως πολλά. Αρχιεράτευσε χρόνους είκοσι πέντε. Έπειτα μην υποφέρων την αλβανικήν γλώσσα εις τα χωρία της επαρχίας του ευχαρίστως έκαμε την παραίτησιν και αφήσας...

The text added in the article translates this entry as: In an ecclesiastical entry .... noted that some of the Christian Greek clergy had linguistic difficulties in administrating to their congregation, as Christian villagers living within the region of Delvinë were Albanian speaking.

It's hardly enough from the original text to conclude that the villagers were in general monolinguals, indeed it claims that Albanian speech was present and in significant numbers (it doesn't also conclude that all villages were Albanian speaking). Moreover, the fact that this produced linguistic difficulties in eclessiastical administration is something that only indirectly can be concluded, since the Codex mentions that "a specific bishop, who came from Smyrna, found it not pleasant to hear his flock speaking Albanian, beacause of the Albanian speaking villages in his periphery, and resigned after 25 years of local service."Alexikoua (talk) 09:00, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

ok i'll rewrite the sentence. Looks like its not clear enough. Thanks for it pointing out. Just to clarify on my part, i chose to write it as "linguistic difficulties" because the bishop was not fond of his congregation speaking Albanian. So there was difficulties (discomfort) over the matter of language, and seems to have been a concern of at least some of the Greek clergy of the era there for it to be cited in the Codex.

About your edit, i was reading through the German source. Though the Greek brotherhood of St Nicholas was founded in the late 16th century (not 15th century as is in the article) it says that the brotherhood engaged in educational construction projects for two centuries. "Auf ihre Initiative hin kam as sehr früh zu Schulgründungen, und fast zwei Jahrhunderte hindurch setzten sie sich für die Forderung des Schulwesens em. (p.79)" It then gives a list summary list of palces that those schools where funded and constructed. "Aus Erbnachlässen einzelner Bruderschaftsmitgliader und aus den Zinsbetràgen der bei der Zecca-Bank in Venedig angelegten Gelder wurde die Einrichtung von Schuleri out der Insel Chios, in Athen und Salona sowie in (astoria. Delvino und Joannina finanziert."(p.79). After that it give a more detailed analysis, by benefactor, date and place built. The earliest school built by the brotherhood was in Chios in the early 1600s. "Nach einer testamentarischen Verfugung des Kaufmanns Emmanouel Glvzounious vom 11. September 1596 entstand bereits im Jahre 1603/1604 auf Chios elne Schule. (p.79)" The bit about Delvina is way at the bottom. "Der Kaufmann Spiridon Rizos verfügte im Jahre 1749 die Einrichtung amer Lehranstalt in Delvino, an der sechs lnternatsschüler eine siebenjahrige Ausbildung erhalten sollten. (p.80)". The brotherhood did not fund and construct a school in Delvina until the late of the 1740s. Thus the sentence that is positioned way up in the article under this sentence "The official name did not change however, as it was also referred to as the Sanjak of Gjirokastër" is a bit problematic. It needs to be coupled with the sentence you wrote below (about Rizos) and i did a little tweaking of it(some word rearrangement) also and some additions (in bold). By the way Greek community should not be italicsed, only the organisation's name (e.g. Brotherhood of Saint Nicholas):

In the late 16th century the local diaspora in Venice as part of the Venetian Greek community's Brotherhood of Saint Nicholas financially supported various initiatives for the expansion of Greek education in Epirus and other adjacent regions during the following two centuries. In 1749, one such notable member of the local diaspora in Venice, Spyridon Rizos, financially supported the expansion of the local Greek education system, as well as donating vast sums of money to 15 Orthodox monasteries and churches in and around the town.

Reason being that the brotherhood's building and funding actives for Delvina only occurred in the 1740s and not before (according to the source). While in the article as it stands now, it reads that the brotherhood was engaged in Delvina from the late 1590s which is not the case. Your views on the rewording ?

Resnjari (talk) 14:09, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

The Brotherhood was approved in 1498 [[2]], but your point is right thus we need to focus about information directly linked with the town. My proposal is the following (I've added a second donation in 1713):

The local diaspora in Venice as part of the Venetian Greek community's Brotherhood of Saint Nicholas financially supported various initiatives for the expansion of Greek education (in 18th century?). Thus, in two instances in 1713 and 1749, Spyros Stratis and Spyridon Rizos respectivelly, notable members of the local diaspora in Venice, financially supported the expansion of the local Greek education system, as well as donating vast sums of money to local Orthodox monasteries and churches.( Koltsida, p. 291 [[3]] "Ο Δελβινιώτης ευεργέτης Σπύρος Στράτης συνέταξε το 1713 τη διαθήκη του στη Βενετία... χρηματοδότηση με αντίστοιχα ποσά σε εκκλησίες και σε μονές περιοχών του Δελβίνου, καθώς και στη μισθοδοσία εφημερίων." + the 2 existing inlines).Alexikoua (talk) 20:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

That's great (with the 18th century bit too). Go for it. Alexikoua on a separate matter, can you check the Souliotes talk page (the main page and the edit wars are becoming to much of a farce by other editors), about at least two edits i had in mind that did not involve sources. One was a sentence breakup (too clunky) and clarification and the other, the reasons/consideration for Albanian name thing being in the lead.

All the best

Resnjari (talk) 05:12, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

The translation of the Greek passage is the following:

Year 1730: After the blessed Zacharias came the holy Genadius. He was from Smyrna and archdeacon of the (Metropolitan) of Ioannina, young of age and didn't like to hear the Christians speak in the Albanian tongue. ... Not bearing that the Albanian language was spoken in the villages of his diocese, he with pleasure resigned [after 25 years], and after leaving his blessings to his spiritual flock, returned to his home country Smyrna. Edion Petriti (talk) 17:25, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

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Phearface

@Khirurg and Maleschreiber: Come on guys, let's use a little WP: GF. No one would be interested to read such sentences on the demographic situation of the city in the first lines of the article. That was why I created its own section for that. Moreover, that sentence has become practically standard for every village and town in that area. And in rare cases you can read it repetitively in the same article, creating mental fatigue. Please don't WP: DBF.Bes-ARTTalk 22:22, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Hey, Bes. Hope you're well. You can remove it, if you consider it to be unnecessary for the lede. --Maleschreiber (talk) 01:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

No one would be interested?? How do you know that? I can tell you that plenty of people are interested, myself included. Besides, WP:LEDE is meant to provide a summary of the article. Khirurg (talk) 03:05, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

The 2014 report discusses the total number of registered citizens which have been registered as belonging to minorities - it includes both inhabitants and non-inhabitants. It lists a total of 23,000+ registered citizens who belong to the Greek minority for Finiq, but less than half of them live in the municipality.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:05, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

A 23,000 population in the entire Finiq municipality is a reasonable and realistic number. If official data are regarded as unreliable i.e. not reflecting the real picture (as in the 2011 census) that's another issue and needs to be supported by bibliography. On the other hand we know that the 2011 census data were largely affected by boycott and irregularities in the process.Alexikoua (talk) 23:00, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

It is, but it's not the resident population. And as it is standard everywhere to use only the resident population, so we do in wikipedia. I can agree up to a point that 2011 Census its not the bet source to use for most of the villages because of boycott but using civil register only would be in stark contrast with the reality.Bes-ARTTalk 23:47, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

There are many different ways which allow the clarification of any uncertainty which a bad or ambiguous translation may cause. The municipality of Finiq had 10,529 inhabitants in 2011. In the 2015 local elections, it had 29,668 registered voters - 8,495 (29%) voted. In the 2017 parliamentary elections, it had 30.101 registered voters - 6.350 (21,1%) voted. In Delvinë (41%) and in Konispol (42%) voted. And I searched for the municipal investment plan 2020-2022. In 2020, Finiq had a total of 289 primary and secondary school students(p.59) and just 87 children in pre-school. Now, a reading of the figure 23,000 as the total number of registered citizens (inhabitants and non-inhabitants) is realistic and reasonable. A reading of the figure 23,000 as the number of living inhabitants of a municipality with 87 children under six is not.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

@Bes-ART: Every minority in every country in the Balkans has called for a boycott of the census of their home country because they face demographic decline. It's the only strategy which minorities have in order to keep some of their rights. And I consider it a rational strategy because basic cultural rights in the Balkans are linked to demographic figures. If they weren't linked to numbers, no minority organization would call for the boycott of any census because it wouldn't feel threatened by it.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

We are obligated to stick to what sources say. Please keep your "creative" original research to yourself and off the encyclopedia, thank you. Khirurg (talk) 05:08, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Comment: We also have the Council of Europe's own condemnation of the 2011 census. Namely from the ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON THE FRAMEWORK CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF NATIONAL MINORITIES (Third Opinion on Albania adopted on 23 November 2011) dated 4th of June 2012 and from the abstract: "A census took place in Albania in October 2011. Last minute amendments to the legislation governing the population census introduced fines for incorrect responses to the questionnaire, and stipulated that a reply would be considered incorrect if it did not correspond with the data contained in the civil registry. The registry is in itself an unreliable source of information. These amendments are therefore not compatible with the principles of free self-identification of persons belonging to national minorities, as provided for by Article 3 of the Framework Convention.". Take note that the civil registry dated back to the Communist regime and that the aforementioned fine amounted to some $1000. Interestingly these were modifications that were proposed by the nationalist party of PDIU. It is indeed a rational strategy for the minority's representatives to try and boycott such a procedure. Demetrios1993 (talk) 06:24, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

2011 Census

The census of 2011 is well documented and referenced. If someone doesnt like it it doesnt mean that it should not be written here. Thank You! RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 17:15, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Since you haven't bothered to read the talkpage, I'll just re-post the post immediately above yours. Namely from the ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON THE FRAMEWORK CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF NATIONAL MINORITIES (Third Opinion on Albania adopted on 23 November 2011) dated 4th of June 2012 and from the abstract: "A census took place in Albania in October 2011. Last minute amendments to the legislation governing the population census introduced fines for incorrect responses to the questionnaire, and stipulated that a reply would be considered incorrect if it did not correspond with the data contained in the civil registry. The registry is in itself an unreliable source of information. These amendments are therefore not compatible with the principles of free self-identification of persons belonging to national minorities, as provided for by Article 3 of the Framework Convention.". Khirurg (talk) 19:57, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

If in the cases of Himarë,Finiq and Delvine where the % of non voters is very low it doesnt make a dofference the fact that some albanian greeks boycotted the census RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 20:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I added the quote by Kallivretakis (1995). @Alltan: it's better to add quotes beforehand in some edits to avoid quote claims. I changed the sentence The census was boycotted by significant number of Greeks to Organizations of the Greek minority called for a boycott @Alexikoua: I believe that we've discussed it in the past as well and my opinion remains the same: we can't equate a call for a boycott by an organization with an actual boycott when the org who calls for it can't get even rudimentary support within a community. There are Albanian organizations in N. Macedonia which call for a boycott in every census. They can't even get 1% of the total vote. The Greek community isn't represented by organizations and parties which its members repeatedly have chosen to not vote or support, hence it's WP:PEACOCK to claim that "Greeks boycotted the census" because minor groups called for it. I think that the sentence Organizations of the Greek minority called for a boycott without further judgment is neutral.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:31, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Bibliography states that the 2011 census was affected by boycott as such this is a fact and even sources presenting this data don't forget adding the necessary footnote: "boycotted by significant number of Greeks."[[4]]. We can not replace it to with a speculation that "Organizations of the Greek minority and Albanian nationalist parties called for a boycott" based on a news article published before the census ethnic data became known. It simply constitutes wp:POV. Also this quote:

Ethnic Greek minority groups had encouraged their members to boycott the census, affecting measurements of the Greek ethnic minority and membership in the Greek Orthodox Church This means that the the census data were affected indeed not simply that there was indeed a call for boycott.

Moreover, the Albanian majority claim is based on Kallivretakis' fieldwork. I can't see a reason why this shouldn't be mentioned. We should present the issue in NPOV fashion since bibliography doesn't agree on the Albanian majority thing.Alexikoua (talk) 00:05, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Pardon me but the HRW does not present the same information compared to Kalivretakis [[5]].Alexikoua (talk) 00:39, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, HRW is saying that in 1999 Greeks were just 25% in the town and in 1989 50%. Kallivretakis doesn't refer to 1989 so HRW doesn't contradict him. Calls of Greek organizations aren't the same as a boycott itself.Alltan (talk) 00:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Altann: Your comment is in full contracition with your reverts: you claim that Kallivretakis claims something diferrent nevertheless you remove his attribution. You also removed entirely the well sourced fact that the census results were affected by boycott from the Greek community (removed also quote that supports this). I assume you either did this by accident or should this be a case of wp:DISRUPTION?Alexikoua (talk) 01:26, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

There is also another issue: HRW refers to 1989 and Kallivretakis to 1991 (yes Kallivretakis concerned 1991 yet another information removed by Altann [[6]] so I begin to feel that this is definitely wp:DISRUPTION) -> we should change it to the correct chronological order.Alexikoua (talk) 02:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Greek name on lead

Already in convenient section, therefore it is to be removed. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:15, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I have the same feeling for Margariti about the alternative name. Based on this rationale.Alexikoua (talk) 22:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

You're right, it would affect too many articles. Let's dismiss it instead or do you have any other opinion? I am confused of your lastest opionion on the talk of Konitsa. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:11, 10 March 2023 (UTC)