Talk:Denarius

We need at least a brief article on as (currency) or something like it; the current article on as that this one links to goes to several different topics, none of which seem remotely related. Wesley 20:22, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

• Done. See As (coin). M123 14:27, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

WORD MEANING

dinar COMES FROM THE GREEK WORD DINARION wich means something like GIVE-

text -Monetary unit. Dinar is derived from the Greek "dinarion" and the Latin "denarius." During the early Islamic period, it was a type of gold coin. Currently it serves as the currency Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, Tunisia, and parts of the former Yugoslavia

LINK: http://www.answers.com/topic/dinar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.180.56.140 (talk) 22:26, 8 September 2008 (UTC) the german wikipedia with the name roots - http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denarius

Origin of the Denarius

I've seen a lot of websites citing the wikipedia page attributing the first strike of the Denarius in 211 B.C., but all my classical references point to the first minting taking place five years before the first Punic War at 269 B.C., so I've gone through and corrected this error and cited references where previously there were none. Scribeofargos (talk) 00:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say that the references you cite are all very old and no more liable. See instead Michael Crawford (Roman Republican coinage) for a more modern approach. Or, better, Rudi Thomsen, Early Roman Coinage. A Study of the Chronology (ERC). 1957-1961.

Or, for a less academic point of view, Wayne G. Sayles: Ancient Coin Collecting III: The Roman World-Politics and Propaganda. Just three books between hundreds.

268 (or 269) BC is founded on an interpretation of Natural History by Pliny the Elder (xxxiii, 42-4) which fixes this date writing: Argentum signatum anno urbis CCCCLXXXV, Q. Ogulnio C. Fabio cos., quinque annis ante primum Punicum bellum.

The problem is that archeological founds in Urbs (I mean of course Roma) and in other hoards (see Thompson M., Mørkholm O., Kray C. M. (eds): An Inventory of Greek Coin Hoards, 1973) show that in these period we (Romans) were still using pre-denarius coins (Didrachms). The 211 BC is fixed after the Morgantina hoard, where archeologist founded roman denarii melted in the burning of this city, dated 211 BC.

I hope I'm clear. Sorry for my mistakes.

--Carlo Morino aka zi' Carlo 13:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

p.s. RRC on Google books -- Carlo —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlomorino (talk • contribs) 13:50, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Daily Wage Value

I think I take issue with saying that the average American day laborer earns 180 US$ a day - that would be an hourly wage of 22.5 $/hr assuming a standard 8 hour work day. Median yearly income in 2003 was $40,668 (according to the US census), which works out to about 19.5 $/hr. But that includes everyone (including doctors, lawyers, engineers, and other high-paying jobs), not just "day laborers". I think it's probably safer to say that the average day laborer earns up to twice minimum wage - which means they max out at $82/day. just my 2 cents worth YggdrasilsRoot 14:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

It might be worth taking that part out entirely. Readers in Finland, Australia, or Japan probably aren't helped by the comparison - but they can compare the US$20/day wage to their own countries wage scales through a simple currency conversion (what? They only made 12,522 floobles a day!?!) - Vedexent 14:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree take it out, the comparrison is missleading, as the wealth distribution, currencys issued (US has no Gold or Silver coins) culture and technologies are different. I would a best compare with 3rd world countries like Rwanda, Laos or Bolivia than america for wages.

Thankyou Enlil Ninlil 02:10, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The US does have a $1 coin containing 1 troy ounce of silver, minted in 1986. According to this, $1 1986 USD is worth $0.561 2005 USD. This does make alot of assumptions, namely that $1 is the worth of 1 troy ounce of silver and not just put in the coin to give it a value.

Also, checking some silver exchange websites, 1 denarius, being worth to 31.1 grams of silver or 1.097 ounces, is worth roughly $13.20 as of August 15, 2006. This would be a far more reliable estimate, though the silver market fluctuates so its hard to get a more accurate estimate.

And bringing in a less reliable estimate, 1981 US Strategic Stockpile coins of 1 troy ounce of silver run from $14 to $15. Given the information presented, it is my opinion that a denarius was the very, very rough equivalent of an American $10 or $20 bill.--2ltben 03:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

So that would make it about 20 Australian dollars, this is not a good anallysis as it is very hard to judge wages over time as most of the historical information from the roman period is not there. Enlil Ninlil 05:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Not the wages, but the value of the coin itself. However, one assumption made is that the coin was worth the value of the silver bullion itself. Unfortunately this isn't the case. I think a better answer would lie in analysis of costs, not wages. Much information is known on the costs of Roman goods, which can be compared with the goods of later civilizations, ones that would be far easier to reach an equivalency with. England, France, the Holy Roman Empire, or, particularly, Byzantium.--2ltben 20:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Cost would be good, but we dont know how much an Amphorae would cost to produce or sell, most of the knoledge is sketetal at best. Even the metal content of the denarius was redused from Augustus (about 95%) to the Antonines debased, but still it is the best we can do so we should change it for the better. Enlil Ninlil 05:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me that someone was confusing grams with grains when they did their calculation. The conventional silver content of an ancient denarius was about 1 dram, or an eighth of an ounce. In Charlemagne's time, the silver content of a denarius was set at one twentieth of an ounce. These coins were quite small then, similar to a dime. Rwflammang 16:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I really think it needs to be removed, It has no relevance. Wages are different in every country, now its saying daily wage is $58 in the U.S, but in Australia it is more like A$160. In essence it is crap. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 23:24, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

coin size

What's the size of these coins? Furthermore, why do they look deformed? Were they that irregular shape when minted? --euyyn 21:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The coins went on weight as indicated, the size and shape wasnt that important. They would have been made by hand, so the shapes would be different. Enlil Ninlil 09:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the size could be not important, but they surely had a size! Say... as a hand? As a present day coin? Smaller? What about the irregularities? Were them originally irregular or were them deformed due to some squashing? --euyyn 23:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no one answer, for some when they were stamped they would have been deformed as sometimes the dies were not properly place on the metal flan, but they would have made them as round as possible, others maybe squashed. And weight is not that consistant, they were reoughly 4.5 grams but may vary between 3.9-4.7 depending on coin. Enlil Ninlil 05:34, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I saw some in an exposition a few months ago and had the impression they were quite small, something about half and euro coin (they were visible only through a lens, so I couldn't have an exact measure). Is it right? --euyyn 01:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Each edition varies in size and technique in production. Some were struck roughshod in remote areas to pay the armies and debts in the provinces. A great many denarius were struck by the most advanced means available in the Roman Empire of the respected tim. In my own personal collection, I have Early Roman Republic silver denarius roughly 15mm and Late Roman Empire denarius as large as 23mm (heavily debased with other metals other than silver). Scribeofargos (talk) 21:42, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Not really a question of size, but I was wondering what the opposite face of this coin looked like. I realize that there were many versions of the coin over the ages, but was the reverse face blank, or was it always identical to the facet shown? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.23.162.53 (talk) 22:55, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

What did the Denarius represent?

I read or heard that it represented a day's wage. 74.195.25.78 (talk) 02:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

This is an over simplification. The Denarius was the principal silver coin among the Romans and was originally equal to ten asses before the long period of devaluation. It's assumed that the first Denarius were struck to simplify military payments and foreign compensation, ( 1 coin vs 10 coins to be carried on campaigns as pay for soldiers, plus silver was a more desirable metal in foreign countries ), but even in the days of the Early Roman Republic, different types of soldiers received different compensation (Pay Grades). Scribeofargos (talk) 00:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Virtually the same

"the Slovenian word denar and the Catalan word diner all meaning money, are also derived from Latin "denarius". The currency unit in the Republic of Macedonia, the denar, is closest in name to the Latin denarius."

So, they are spelled the same, I'm betting they are pronounced the same, so, tell me, how can the Macedonian version be closer? MihaS (talk) 15:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Closer, because the official money in Macedonia are called Denari (denarius> plural:Denarii) --MacedonianBoy (talk) 23:25, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

I read: "The word "Denarius" is derived from the Greek word: δηνάριον (meaning "to give")"..."

This is meaningless: δηνάριον is coming from the Latin denarius. BTW in Greek to give is διδομι and the root is –δο– , nothing to do with the Latin deni ("in number of ten") which has the same root of en. "ten" and ger. "zehn".

Denarius is a Latin term indicating the tenth of a series, and in this case mean 10 asses, the original value of this coin, as indicated from the X which is in the first issues.

--Carlo Morino aka zi' Carlo 14:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Pronounciation

As much I remember my latin from high school, pronunciation annotated in article is quite wrong and anglicized. I think it should be denarius (/dɛnɑːrɪuːs/; plural: denarii /dɛnɑːrɪ/).

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Value in Modern Terms

I know the whole effort is a bit futile but I've been trying to reconcile some sources. The article previously read:

Classical historians often say that in the late Roman Republic and early Roman Empire (~27 BC) the daily wage for an unskilled laborer and common soldier was 1 denarius (with no tax deductions) or about US$2.80 in bread.

This was originally "$28" until changed by an editor who considered it a miscalculation. The source which is cited estimates $20 during the Roman republic and at the time of Caesar (d. 44 BC). I get the impression that there may have been another source which hasn't been given.

Meanwhile, some New Testament-oriented sources say it's "sixteen or seventeen cents", which I as far as I can tell was calculated in the early 19th century at the latest. 17 cents from 1800 is apparently about $3.24 in 2016.

The events of the New Testament (~4 BC–33 AD; potentially written 70 AD or later) are mostly post-Augustus (d. 14 AD) and apparently "From the time of Augustus [the value of the denarius] decreased as its weight was diminished by the use of bronze. In time it was valued at only one-eighth of its original value, in effect a useless bronze monetary unit." So I was thinking the estimates could be roughly consistent, depending on how fast it was devalued, and I should change the unsourced estimate of $2.80 in pre-Augustan times back to $20.

However, one of the Bible-y sources references the denarius changing from 10 to 16 asses which happened in 141 BC, and says the 17 cents estimate is of the denarius before this change. However, since it's kind of old and I don't know where the estimate originally comes from anyway I've decided to just ignore it until someone comes up with a better idea. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 13:45, 9 June 2019 (UTC) ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 13:45, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

References

Plural of 'As'

The article might be improved by using the Latin plural assēs, rather than asses, to avoid confusion. See As (Roman coin). (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 09:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)