Talk:Desolation Row

New Layout

I have rearranged the existing information here to conform with standards in the Songs project and to bring it into line with better pages under more logical headings. I have cut some of the unsubstantiated, repeated and contradictory information (e.g. wherever Al Kooper thinks Desolation Row might be this week). I have included some new text on live versions. I have preserved the My Chemical Romance data as its own subheading to be uncontroversial (IMHO it probably warrants a separate page maybe) but have had to move a fair amount of the content to a more appropriate page (the Watchmen soundtrack). Details about the narrative for the video of a movie tie-in cover version of a forty year old song don't really belong on the page about the original song. Don't get me wrong, I love the band and I love their version and its a great video: the text just shouldn't live here. If the single and accompanying video were particularly notable then I would encourage whoever put the time and effort into drafting said text should consider starting a new page.

Meanwhile, this page needs some more substantiated references about meaning and composition (i.e. no more personal research). I will endeavour to dig up something from a reputed "professor" and get back here when I can. If you want to work on this together send me a message and I'm happy to collaborate. Silverwood (talk) 12:46, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Song analysis

Is Wikipedia really the place to be writing song analyses?

I rather feel not... This one goes on far too long and is pretty tendentious in places. Eg the last paragraph saying (with no caveat) it's all about the Cold War and MAD - eh? who says??? About the only bit that adds usefully to the narrative is the info. about the Duluth lynching. Linuxlad 07:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Do "American Pie" next (Don MacLean), okay? --Ed Poor

Still to do: Intepretations for the verses that begin with "Dr. Filth, he keeps his world", "Across the street, they've nailed the curtains", "Praise be to Nero's Neptune"

"Desolation Row is someplace close to Mexico 'an they got a lot of Coke machines there".- Bob Dylan 1965. Lion King 22:29, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

This is the worst description ever. Whoever wrote it, clearly doesn't understand the song at all.

I would agree with the above statement, if Dylan understood the song! Lion King 00:01, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether or not Dylan himself fully understands the song or not, the fact is what is written has no basis to it. "Desolation Row" is clearly a good place and half the people who are quoted in this article to show it is a negative place, are people NOT living on Desolation Row. "This is Dylan's pessimistic vision of the future; where everyone, even Bette Davis, Cinderella, Casanova, and Albert Einstein, is tragic and pained, living in a scrap of a town." Firstly, Bette Davis is not described as living on Desolation Row, she is used as a comparison to show how glamorous Cinderella is now that she has moved to Desolation Row. Secondly, Casanova is someone who is thrown out of Desolation Row in the song, and, this is because he doesn't fit the requirements for living there, as, he is not an outcast, but, instead is seen as being a tool of the media in the song. Albert Einstein is also not living in Desolation Row, he and Robin Hood are used as one of the greatest metaphor's in a song to describe Dylan himself, and, in the song he is just passing through Desolation Row, but, no longer feels he is able to live there anymore.

Why don't you just listen to the song, shut your eyes, and watch the pictures in your mind? Lion King 01:44, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

You should be banned from listening to Bob Dylan songs.

"Years from now, all these fucking assholes are gonna be writing about all this shit I write. I don't know where the fuck it comes from, I don't know what it's about, an' they're gonna write what it's about!" Bob Dylan 1965. Lion King 15:47, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

that's actually joan baez paraphrasing what she remembers dylan saying, not an actual dylan quote--Progjunky 12:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

If you think Bob Dylan doesn't mean what he says when he sings about in his songs, then he certainly doesn't mean what he says in interviews. Plus, that has nothing to do with anything, clearly someone has written about what this song is about and it's clearly wrong, maybe in your next post you could try and say something about what is written on here and how it is the complete opposite of what is in the song.

Now your'e taking issue with Dylan! He dosesn't mean what he says? You understand his songs? Next you'll start to think you are Dylan. You wont even allow the man to mean what he says? He has been driven stark raving bonkers by people like you, and the people who put articles like this together. Face it, you don't know what it means, you think you do, and that's fine. Just don't lay it on me eh? And don't become the "Biggest Fan" that pulls the trigger on him OK? Lion King 12:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC) P.S. This article serves no useful purpose, it's conjecture and does not belong in an encyclopedia. It needs moving to one of the numerous, inaccurate "looney fan sites." Lion King 13:29, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I was pointing out that if you do not care about what Dylan sings about in his songs and don't believe they have any great meaning then that's up to you, but, my point is that what he says in interviews is even more likely to be made up or not 100% true. My original point was simply that the definition of the song in this article, whether true or not, is totally contradictory to what the lyrics actually say, not just in my own interpretation but quite simply inaccurate reporting on what is said in the song.

Of course I believe Dylan's songs have great meaning - great meaning to him. He once said, that if he told us what certain songs meant, we would feel excluded, because they are so intensely personal. I also believe, that he really does not know why most of them have arrived on his doorstep. "Desolation Row" means many different things, people and places to me, as I'm sure it does to you - it's hardly "I Want To Hold Your Hand". This is what makes him rock's only bona fide genius. We have always been in step on the real issue though, I think this article is a pretentious, side splitting load of garbage! Can I listen to Dylan again now? Lion King 20:32, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this song, like most of Dylan's work is open to massive amounts of interpretation, but, you have to admit that a comment like "Dylan seems to believe that if the people of Desolation Row continue to grow, the world will become entirely the same, full of sad, lonely losers. This is Dylan's pessimistic vision of the future; where everyone, even Bette Davis, Cinderella, Casanova, and Albert Einstein, is tragic and pained, living in a scrap of a town" is just wrong, wrong, wrong for so many reasons, as anyone who even glances at the lyrics can see. So, my complaint is not that what I believe the song is about is not represented here, but, rather that what is in the article is totally wrong and no-one could possibly believe that this is correct, so yes there is something we agree on.

:Yeah, good stuff! Log in start writing! Lion King 00:12, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it is silly to say no one could possibly believe something is correct. I am sure many moderately intelligent people believe things that others disagree with wholeheartedly. Obviously at least one moderately intelligent (I assume) person believes in the statements in this article, and I am sure many others do also. Otherwise, this person now sees the error of his or her ways. I happen to disagree with many points made in the article. Regardless of all this, I think this article should be replaced with an entirely new one immediately, one that does not rely upon personal interpretation, but has a basis in external sources. I stress that this should be discharged immediately.

The Three Penny Review section could probably be removed in its entirety. Moreover, the paragraph beginning with "The song describes..." should probably be shortened. I'd take a stab at the changes, but frankly, it's late.

This page is embarrassing to look at. It's just a bunch of conjecture and personal research. Almost all of the analysis should be deleted or majorly reworked.

How is Little John referenced in the song? I've checked the lyrics through a couple of times, and there are absolutely no references to Little John. Is he confused with Friar Tuck, who could be Robin Hood's jealous monk-friend, or what?

blog/us-passport-color/

"...they're painting the passports brown... "Official (reddish brown cover) -- Issuable to citizen-employees of the United States assigned overseas, either permanently or temporarily, and their eligible dependents, and to members of Congress who travel abroad on official business. Also issued to US military personnel when deployed overseas." Government Issued No Fee Passport"

EDLIS Café Press (talk) 11:30, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Lyric copyright infringement

I have removed the lyrics added to this page. Without permission from the copyright holder they are an infringement of the rights. Please do not add reproductions of lyrical material that are still in copyright.

Thanks,

Pepperstool 12:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

lyrics.

I am removing the lyrics sample at the end of the page. If somebody wants to see the lyrics, they can find them elsewhere (for instance, by clicking the external link at the bottom of the page); wikipedia is not the place for them. Furthermore, there is no specific reason for adding this particular verse over any other. Glassbreaker5791 (talk) 23:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Pale Horse

The section on My Chemical Romance's cover of the song says that Pale Horse is a punk band. What evidence is there of this? 221.213.77.141 (talk) 12:43, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Could you not include the band "My Chemical Romance" in the Desolation Row article? At least get rid of that watchmen photo. Its disrespectful... is there a huge picture of Britney Spears on the "Satisfaction" page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Autrybr1985 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I concur. The subject is "Desolation Row" and its author, not a group that happened to record the song. The infobox, picture and now two paragraphs of information goes well beyond the cover's notability. Given the lack of historical significance, as in the case of the Byrds' "Tambourine Man" and Hendrix's "Watchtower," this amounts to either fan adulation or an advert for the group and film. Allreet (talk) 23:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

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Watchmen

I re-wrote the Watchmen material based on the sources provided, while changing the one citation to link to the relevant page at the UK Singles Chart website. In the process, I cut everything else not supported by the sources, per WP:VER, WP:NOT and WP:TRIVIA. My Chemical Romance's cover of "Desolation Row" is notable, but no more nor less so than the others mentioned. On that basis, I also believe the info box is inappropriate, however much in good faith it may have been added. The subject is Bob Dylan and his song. Not a film that happened to include a cover. In effect, the numerous adds on Watchmen are turning the Desolation Row article into a vehicle for promoting the film. Accordingly, I propose removing the box, but would like to hear from others first. Allreet (talk) 07:06, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Seems like the one thing that makes the "Watchmen" cover interesting at all is the fact that lyrics from the song were used for the title of the first chapter of the original comic / graphic novel ("At midnight, all the agents"), as well as the epigram that closed that chapter. So using the song for the end credits is an oblique reference back to the book... all of which is presumably relevant for the "Watchmen" movie page, perhaps less so here. Invalidname (talk) 17:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the extra material on Watchmen, which is again overwhelming the subject. In my opinion, the cover deserves no more than the usual 2-3 line mention allotted to any other cover song in any other article on an original song. Given the version's relative unimportance (pretty much destined to enjoy obscurity), the infobox itself is out of place and should be removed. A counter position to that assessment might be reasonably made, but given the above comments (made in the same good faith as I assume the edits were), no additional material should be included without providing justification. I'll add a note to the article requesting this. I'd also appreciate feedback from others. Thanks. Allreet (talk) 12:37, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree - infobox should definitely be deleted, maybe moved to a new article if the cover is notable enough Ranaenc (talk) 05:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, this song was number one on the UK rock singles chart, that should be up there, no?... Tribalninja (talk) 18:30, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Would it be worth noting the music video was included on the film's DVD? Dac (talk) 07:50, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011

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My Chemical Romance

References to the MCR cover version have been deleted and replaced with the Grateful Dead cover a few times. I have reverted these. There did use to be a huge entry on the MCR cover here which I have moved to the Watchmen OST page but mention should remain of the MCR cover version in the opening para and its own section. It was recently released as a single attached to a big movie with a popular video and scored a healthy chart position. None of the other covers are especially notable, irrespective of your own favourites! Personally I really like the Hitchcock version...Silverwood (talk) 09:00, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Ya, but the MCR cover already is singled out for these reasons in its own section when it should be a subsection of the covers section. Why does it need mention in an introductory paragraph which need only set up the main points of the article? Stylistically, I think it distracts focus from the Bob Dylan original, and the information is already on there (why mention it twice?), so the earlier mention is not really doing anything in the article but advertising MCR and Watchmen. It would be a better idea, I think, to speak more towards the much heftier "release and interpretation" section in the intro, since this is germane to the subject of the entry, if anything. I'd be willing to suggest a very simple rewrite of the sentence in question, I suppose. Otherwise, I'd suggest flat out deleting mention of the song's covers. There is nothing particularly interesting about the fact that it has been covered. This is a general feature of the popular music landscape. It is not integral to the article's subject and it should not really be in an introductory paragraph. I will enact these changes sans any arguments against. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.148.82 (talk) 00:42, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Good point. It's not significant that a song has been covered, especially one by Dylan! My previous edits were sitting on the fence too much so as not to antagonise the Deadheads or the MCR fans but you are right, the text should be incorporated better into the main body. I have made changes in line with what I think you meant in the intro and the covers section Silverwood (talk) 11:03, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Ya, looks good, sometimes small/simple changes make a big difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.148.82 (talk) 04:26, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

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