Talk:Devil Dog

NPOV

the {{NPOV}} template was added without any discussion as to why. If someone really wants it there, let's hear your issues with the article as it stands. -- stubblyhead | ^T/_c 06:33, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Delicious snack cakes

I moved the section describing Drake's Devil Dogs to the article titled Devil Dogs, since the plural title matches that of the snack product. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.114.164.14 (talk • contribs) 17:30, May 29, 2006 (UTC)

Teufel Hunden

If the Germans spread the rumour, that US Marines were calling them for DevilDogsn (Devil Dogs in plain English), every English-speaking person would surely classify DevilDogsn as a German manufactured lie.
In German: "1 Hund" = "1 dog", "2 Hunde" = "2 dogs", so "Hunden" with an extra 'N' must be "dogsn" with an extra 'N' (not dogs'n'devil). In German, terms are in one word, opposed to English, were two words can describe one term: aircraft carrier (Flugzeugträger), police officer (Polizeivollzugsbeamte), space shuttle (Raumfähre), weather satellite (Wettersatellit) etc. There is a jungle of rules, how to connect two words in German, but here an 'S' is used; Teufelshunde.
A German reader might figure out that Teufel Hunden is suppose to mean Teufelshunde, like an English reader will figure out that "DevilsDogsn" is suppose to mean "Devil Dogs". User:ERcheck removed "DevilDogsn" but the whole idea was to literally translate it into incorrect English, so that it catches the eye. DevilDogsn looks as incorrect to an English reader as Teufel Hunden looks to a German reader. Necessary Evil 17:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Teufelshunde in German is genitive, meaning "the devil's dogs" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.115.12.119 (talk) 21:02, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

No, it's not genitive. The "s" in the middle is an epenthesis (in German: Fugenlaut), and it does therefore certainly not mean "the devil'd dogs". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.226.81.14 (talk) 21:56, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

sort of like devil'd eggs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.48.16 (talk) 19:13, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Huh?

That shit about it being derogatory unless you're a fellow Marine is crap. I'm in the Navy and I'm stationed with quite a few Marines, they actually like it when we call them Devil Dogs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.164.186.194 (talk) 23:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I was in the Marine Corps (0311/8152) and the term that was offensive unless said by a fellow Marine was, "JARHEAD." Sallicio (talk) 16:24, 22 December 2007 (UTC)Sallicio

In my unit (not that it was right, but...), when any other service called us "Devil Dogs" it was almost like, "Aww, isn't that cute, they're trying to talk to us." Sallicio (talk) 16:26, 22 December 2007 (UTC)Sallicio

As a non-Marine who's worked with Marines, I was likewise startled to see the article's claim that nicknames like Devil Dogs are considered derogatory when used by non-Marines (though I'd wondered that for Jarhead), so I agree with the above comments. Because no one has voiced a contrary opinion in the years since these comments were posted, and because the claim in the article is unsourced, I'll remove that claim from the article. 153.31.112.24 (talk) 14:49, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm German and "Teufel Hunden" isn't gammatically correct. It should spell "Teufels Hunde" although it sounds still very uncommen in German. I would suggest "Höllenhunde" which is more common and means "hellhounds". But I'dont know if thats too far away from the original. Finally I can only say that the term "Teufel Hunden" doesn't really make sense in german and I'm very sure that it comes from a misunderstanding or bad translation.

16th July 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.181.130.5 (talk) 09:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It is already a known fact that it is misspelled but that is the tradition and that is what is used.--11:19, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Looper5920 (talk)

If you're a German you would know that it's Teufelshunde in one word. The US Marines use Teufel Hunden - like in the poster. We use many terms that are not quite correct i.e. New Zealand was discovered by Cook in 1769 so what's NEW about it. If you can find a source citing that Höllenhunde was more common in 1917, be my guest. --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 14:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Well I`m not a German, but a native German speaker and he is right. Höllenhunde would be the correct term for a German speaker (mainly because of it`s mythological context, very much like the English form: Hounds of Hell or Hellhounds), though everyone would of course understand what Teufelshunde (Devildogs) means. 62.178.137.216 (talk) 14:38, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I took the liberty to change in the quote by Phil Mehringer the word "Teufel Hunden" to "Teufelshunde". Since it's referring to a German dispatch the word would surely have been correct there. I agree that "Höllenhunde" would be more common nowadays, but hey, language changes over time and it might just as well have been more common to say "Teufelshunde" almost a century ago. Also, "Teufels-" is not wrong in any way, e.g. Teufelszeug, so it's perfectly possible that's what they used then. Especially considering the description of the Marines in their gas masks advancing up that hill. By the way, I wouldn't consider Teufelshund a derogative in German per se, it really depends on the situation and intend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.183.157.177 (talk) 11:39, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The source uses "Tuefel Hunden" instead of "Teufel Hunden". It's probably caused by the Master Sergeant's keyboard skills. Since the debate is about "Teufel Hunden" vs. "Teufelshunde" your are doing 'quotation tampering' ;-) --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 16:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, you're right, my mistake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.54.34.132 (talk) 19:24, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

It's also possible that the Germans actually called them "Teufelskerle", hotshots or hell-raisers (using today's English one could also say "bad mofos"), which is a rather common and also fitting German term for Marines or anybody else who is extremely daring and fights against overwhelming odds without fear. "Teufelshund" is not a derogative term in German, simply because the word doesn't exist in German. There is the term "Hundsteufel", but that is usually used in a different context, along the lines of the English "damn it" and it's not that wide spread in the German language. It's more common in Bavaria and parts of Austria but even there one doesn't hear it very often. However a "Hundsteufel" can be found in at least one Belgian painting from the 17th century, where it is one of several "devils" that appear, one of them being a "bagpipe-devil" (I think it's from Breughel, but I'd have to look it up, don't remember which one on top of my head and the only one who ever referred to it as "Hundsteufel", as far as I know, in an official writing was Jacob Burckhardt in his lectures 1870-1892.) As for the dispatch, I'd very much like to see it. Language does change but I have yet to see the wording "Teufel Hunde" or "Teufelshunde" in literature or any other written form from the 1910s. Apart from that people didn't cuss as easily as today back in those days. An official dispatch inside the German army would hardly use such a word, especially when considering that many officers of the Germany army were members of the German nobility and with that had a certain level of education and also proper language. Which would support the idea of the Marines being called "Teufelskerle", because that word also has a certain admiring tone to it and thus would quite fit into the language used by a German officer of those days in an official dispatch. One warring party could call the other "Teufelskerle", if their deeds would be outstanding and impressive, even from their enemy's point of view. Remember, those were the days when admiring the enemy's skill wasn't considered to be bad, yet, and a certain amount of respect for the enemy's performance was acceptable. 熊 (talk) 01:11, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Theree is another meaning for teufelhunden but hunden is missed spelt it is HUNDIN but hte U has umlouts which means female dog or slang for B*tch so it is devil B*itch —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.125.253.9 (talk) 20:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, Hündin is bitch in German [1] --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 01:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction tag

The contradiction tag was originally placed in this article: 10:58, 16 April 2008 Necessary Evil (talk | contribs) (4,128 bytes) (Contradiction: bloodshot eyes and mouth foam not covered by their snout shaped gas masks - I thought that gas masks should cover their eyes and mouths.) but was never addressed. There is no contradiction with this article from what I am able to read or the issue has already been taken care of as the section now reads:

"As the Marines fought their way up the hill, the heat caused them to sweat profusely, foam at the mouth and turned their eyes bloodshot. Additionally, at some points the hill was very steep, which caused the Marines to have to scramble on all fours to make their way up. Consequently, from the Germans' vantage point, they witnessed a pack of tenacious, growling figures whose lower faces were obscured by gas masks (which at the time had a prolonged shape that somewhat resembled a snout) but left open their bloodshot eyes and mouth foam seeping from the sides, advancing up the hill, sometimes on all fours, and killing everything in their way.."

Tag is being removed. If you still feel there is a contradiction, please feel free to discuss it here. Thanks. Kjnelan (talk) 16:46, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Laughable Bullshit

As a German, I must say that these stories are such laughable bullshit that it is hard to believe how anyone could believe them. Let alone them being true.
They are very obviously war propaganda, like used in every war since forever. Made-up “legends”.

So it doesn’t “suggest” the Germans never used the word. Only a lunatic would believe them to be facts. The paragraph should not read “According to tradition in the United States Marine Corps” but “According to war propaganda from the United States Marine Corps”.

Sorry. We had to give up our war bullshit decades ago too. You have to do the same. :)

— 188.100.196.133 (talk) 18:50, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Sure thing, Mr. Anonymous, sure thing...

— 178.88.21.40 (talk) 06:47, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Anglos making up history? I can't believe it!!

--37.14.47.182 (talk) 09:28, 2 May 2016 (UTC) 02:25, 12 July 2020 (UTC)"Sorry. We had to give up our war bullshit decades ago too. You have to do the same. :)"02:25, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

The difference is, YOU LOST.  :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.217.2.121 (talk) 02:25, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

@71.217.2.121: Well, of course they had to give up their war stories, since they were the bad guys. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 21:14, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Teufelsberg

FWIW, there is a "hill" in Berlin call Teufelsberg. So, I don't it would be a stretch for some German/Austrian or someone in the German army whose first tung wasn't German to say Teufel-hund, Teufelshund, Teufelshunde, or even Teufelshunden ... OR for the interpreter to repeat it or write down wrong! For an American Marine interpreter, it would be an easy mistake to later say that the POW said Teufel Hunden! ... Or to Americanize it so that it made more sense ... Teufelshunde ... doesn't strike the English-speaking eyes as impressive but Teufel Hunden does! ... BTW, English as the -en as a plural for a few words like children, oxen, lenden ... So rewriting it to fit the English structure would make sense ... thus writing as two words and the plural with -en. This sort of corruption is common in etym of words. That's just my guess but I think it makes sense. Wes þu hal! (talk) 14:59, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Alliterations are very powerful slogans and Devil Dogs is a good one. Teufel means 'Devil', okay. Hunden means.. I don't know but Hunde means 'dogs'. 'Devil Dogs' in German would be Teufelshunde in one word, not Teufel Hunde(n) in two words. But Germans would use Höllenhunde - something like 'Hounds of Hell'. So whoever conceived 'Devil Dogs' should have used Höllenhunde instead. Then the Marines' nickname would be Hell Hounds or something. --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 18:36, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Hoellenhunde & Teufelskerle

Writing as a native German it beats me that here two usual german words have been mixed up. As was already stated here there's the german word "Höllenhund" (hell hound, dog from hell). But there's also another world with equal content, which is "Teufelskerl" (devlish guy, guy like a devil ("Kerl" being a rough german word for a strong young man )). Obviously both terms might have been used at the time by the Germans to classify the Marines as hard fighting opponents. Both terms were quite normally used at the time as a synonym for something like attaboy - whereas "Teufelshund" (which btw is proper german nominative) is and was a very unusual word. So my take is that both of the usual terms where heard by the Marines and later mixed up on the American side. Which off course would need to be documented by a proper linguist :-). JB --92.195.95.111 (talk) 16:18, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

"Devil Docs"

In my twenty years of service int the USMC I have never heard of hospital corps man referred to as 'Devil Doc'. Where that may have come from I have no idea, perhaps the Navy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.209.195.16 (talk) 07:37, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

@70.209.195.16: From what I can tell, it's a real term, but it's pretty new, a neologism. Probably why you didn't hear it during your time. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 21:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Grammar Problem

Rather than try to rewrite or question history, the more accurate thing to do would be to remind the reader that Americans who speak English could easily misunderstand the exact syntax used by the Germans. The fact is this phrase or one like it was reported over and over in American newspapers and commented on by high ranking Marine officers. One piece of evidence came from a letter found in the pocket of a German which told his family that they were facing an enemy which fought like dogs from hell. Of course, that was also a translation from German and the translator could have used the wrong word, phrase, or syntax. Using an error in grammar as a reason to change or deny history is a fool's errand and not helpful.

I hope this is helpful in an issue which I see has been commented on several times.

184.75.241.169 (talk) 17:45, 24 March 2015 (UTC)George Brett Univ. of Houston

Well this is Wikipedia. Statements need sources, else it is original research.

Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves.

Often as an intelligent person you will try to connect the dots, find explanations, use one's common sense etc.- but it is forbidden. So your obiter dicta cannot be used here, sorry. --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 20:10, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

In the absence of supporting evidence, it is original research in its own right to treat this as anything BUT a good yarn. The fact that the story is told that way can be shown, the notion that it has any basis in historical fact cannot. Applying a stronger standard of evidence to one side than the other is epistemologically unsound, and highly problematic in situations like here, where the pertinent research may simply not be accessible to interested parties due to a language barrier --2A02:8106:258:3A00:3D2F:5592:B9D6:C37E (talk) 17:07, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

As others have pointed out, "dogs from hell" i.e. hellhounds, or in German, Höllenhunde, is an existing term in German and regularly used. "Teufelshund", on the other hand, is not. It also does not occur in "the" German dictionary, the "Duden". The issue is thus not one of grammar, it's one of mixing up terms completely. --2A02:8106:258:3A00:3D2F:5592:B9D6:C37E (talk) 16:57, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

the characterization of the story as myth is not borne out by the cited sources. Calling it unproven is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.197.21.160 (talk) 18:19, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

This is not a case of "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" - if the term was used in German, there would be some kind of evidence for its use. Calling it "unproven" implies a certain likelihood of it being accurate that in reality isn't given. It should be clearly framed as an origin legend. We might otherwise just add that Jesus Christ was the son of God because it says so in the Bible. --2A02:8106:258:3A00:3D2F:5592:B9D6:C37E (talk) 16:57, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Marine Corp handbook

An editor contributed with quotes from his Marine Corp handbook[2]. IMHO the handbook would be a reference to how the Marines' apprehend the Devil Dog term. --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 00:34, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

This story is almost certainly a myth

Between the weird grammatical and spelling errors (which vary from one source to the next, even between different uses by the Marine Corps), the story originally being reported by Floyd Phillips Gibbons, who was a great character but not afraid to embellish the truth a little and the lack of any proven source showing the Germans actually used the term themselves it's fairly likely that the origin of the term Devil Dog is a myth. This article gives a good account of how the term seems more likely to have originated in American propaganda than among German soldiers.

When you try to track down the origin of the term you find lots of American sources claiming the Germans said this but you'll struggle to find a German source in which the term is actually used. In Mencken's 'The American Language' you'll find a brief reference to it in which he notes that the Germans didn't go in for these sort of nicknames at all - they referred to their enemies largely by their nationalities and didn't even stoop to calling Americans Yankees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:111E:2300:98D:CF76:86AE:EF9D (talk) 12:09, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

I recommend including this information and locking the article from further editing. Marines are very proud of their "history" and will continually edit this article's origins section. 99.156.160.153 (talk) 02:32, 13 December 2017 (UTC)