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Dhyana is not samadhi
edit'Dhyana is not samadhi. Dhyana, the fourth dhyana, is awareness, mindfulness; samadhi is closing-off consciousness. While I've often wondered about the term samadhi in the eightfold path, I've never thought that the term is plain wrong there. But it is. Which implies that the eightfold path is a later summary, reflecting the growing importance of jhana in the Buddhist tradition after the death of the Buddha, under the influence of non-Buddhist traditions (see Bronkhorst, Gombrich, etc., on this growing influence). This is also reflected in the tradional Theravada-account of "sila, samadhi, prajna," in which samadhi precedes insight, while the eightfold path starts with insight, in the form of samma-ditti.
Something is really odd there; it seems to imply that non-Buddhist ascetic traditions, which were also incorporated into Buddhism, were even more influential that Bronkhorst c.s. envisioned. Well, at least in the Theravada-tradition, which ironically sees itself as the gatekeeper of original Buddhism! Compare it with Zen-meditation, where dhyana is not merely concentrationm but 'indifferent' attention to what comes up in the mind and body. Yeah, really odd. No wonder Theravada is so scholastic; they had to cover-up these incorporations, and try to make them orthodox. But dhyana is not samadhi, and insight alone does not suffice. It's mindfulness of the arising of disturbing thoughts and emotions which 'does the trick'. What would the eightfold path look lik3, when we replace samadhi with dhyana - or when we leave it out altogether? Would it still work? I guess so. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:48, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
So, I noticed this before, six years ago... Talk:Dhyāna in Buddhism/Archive 1#Dhyana and mindfulness, see here. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:30, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
This notion from Frauwallner is relevant here:
According to Frauwallner, mindfulness was a means to prevent the arising of craving, which resulted simply from contact between the senses and their objects. According to Frauwallner this may have been the Buddha’s original idea.[1]
References
- ^ Williams 2000, p. 45.
It's even possible to regard the first two dhyana's as referring to concentration-mediation, while th third and fourth refer to something diffeent, related to mindfulness. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:26, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Thanissaro Bhikkhu on the Visuddhimagga
editThanissaro Bhikkhu is critical about the use of the Visuddhimagga as a meditation-guide; see Concentration and Discernment. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:56, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
Jhana according to Joshua Jonathan
editJhana - according to Dutch citizen Joshua Jonathan - is 'the training of the mind'. And yet nowhere in the history of Buddhism has such an assertion ever been made and nowhere can such a definition be found. 82.27.90.157 (talk) 18:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- What's the relevance of me being Dutch? Your edits changed diff changed sourced info
In the oldest texts of Buddhism, dhyāna (Sanskrit) or jhāna (Pāḷi) is the training of the mind, commonly translated as meditation, to withdraw the mind from the automatic responses to sense-impressions, and leading to a "state of perfect equanimity and awareness (upekkhā-sati-parisuddhi)."[1] Dhyāna may have been the core practice of pre-sectarian Buddhism, in combination with several related practices which together lead to perfected mindfulness and detachment, and are fully realized with the practice of dhyana.[2][3][4]
In the later commentarial tradition, which has survived in present-day Theravāda, dhyāna is equated with "concentration," a state of one-pointed absorption in which there is a diminished awareness of the surroundings. In the contemporary Theravāda-based Vipassana movement, this absorbed state of mind is regarded as unnecessary and even non-beneficial for awakening, which has to be reached by mindfulness of the body and vipassanā (insight into impermanence). Since the 1980s, scholars and practitioners have started to question this equation, arguing for a more comprehensive and integrated understanding and approach, based on the oldest descriptions of dhyāna in the suttas.[5][6][7][8]- into
In the oldest texts of Buddhism, dhyāna (Sanskrit) or jhāna (Pāḷi) is a state of meditative absorption in which the mind is withdrawn from ordinary reactive responses to sense-impressions whereby the mind is led to a "state of perfect equanimity and awareness (upekkhā-sati-parisuddhi)."[1] Dhyāna may have been the core practice of pre-sectarian Buddhism, in combination with several related practices which together lead to perfected mindfulness and detachment, and are fully realized with the practice of dhyana.[2][3][4]
In the later commentarial tradition, which has survived in present-day Theravāda, dhyāna is equated with "concentration," a state of one-pointed absorption in which there is a diminished awareness of the surroundings. In the contemporary Theravāda-based Vipassana movement jhana is reached by mindfulness of the body and insight into the transient nature of sensations and conditions. Since the 1980s, scholars and practitioners have started to question this equation, arguing for a more comprehensive and integrated understanding and approach, based on the oldest descriptions of dhyāna in the suttas.[5][6][7][8]
References
- ^ a b Vetter 1988, p. 5.
- ^ a b Vetter 1988.
- ^ a b Bronkhorst 1993.
- ^ a b Gethin 1992.
- ^ a b Rose 2016, p. 60.
- ^ a b Shankman 2008.
- ^ a b Polak 2011.
- ^ a b Arbel 2017.
- This is sourced info. It starts with "In the oldest texts of Buddhism." The point of view you are pushing is the traditional point of view of the Theravada-tradition; and a misrepresentation of the Vipassana-movement point of view - mindfulness leads to vipassana (insight), not meditative absorption.
- Regarding "training of the mind," see Annutara Nikaya 3.88:
“There are these three trainings: the training in the higher virtue, the training in the higher mind, and the training in the higher wisdom . . . And what is the training in the higher mind? . . . one enters and dwells in the first jhana . . . the second jhana . . . the third jhana . . . one enters and dwells in the fourth jhana . . . this is the training in the higher mind.” AN3.88
- Get your basics right before you start with commenting. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:10, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress
editThere is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Dhyāna which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:02, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
Terminology
editAccording to wikt:dhyana, "dhyana" is an English word. It's already in the title of the article, but the body can be changed to just use that term except where the Sanskrit form is being noted. (This will save a lot of italics and make the article easier to read.) -- Beland (talk) 07:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC)