Talk:Diagnosis of Asperger syndrome

Edit conflict with "in use template"

Sorry about that, it only showed up after I put the second ref in. --Zeraeph 23:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

so, who's doing it? I have them all in one place in my sandbox, but I'm not interested in losing it a third time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a slight difference between an unintentional edit conflict and a contest you know. As soon as the tag came up I stopped, but I an afraid my crystal ball needs new batteries so I couldn't see it before then. If you have them, just put them in. --Zeraeph 23:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

No thanks; you brought the text here before you had consensus, and if the text in the main article changes, I don't want to have to change it now in two places. No need for duplication of effort. When the main article text is settled, we can then, with patience and according to a pre-agreed plan, bring it over here correctly. Impulsive moves create extra work for all. For example, I've already had to edit both articles to keep this in sync with the main article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah c'mon Sandy, it was your idea, not mine...I just did WP:BOLD and got on with it. --Zeraeph 01:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Adult Diagnoses

This article is pretty focused on children getting diagnosed with AS. While I was diagnosed with it at 12 there are probably many diagnoses that occur at later ages, and well into adulthood. MY question is this: does the procedure for diagnosis of adults with Asperger's, or any other ASD for that matter, differ significantly from that of children? If so, this needs to be included in order broaden this article. I don't want to turn this into an Autism Rights flame war but I think we need to keep in mind that there are just as many adults with ASDs as there are kids.Jsonitsac 02:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Most diagnoses are children, hence the published literature focuses there. If you can find a reliable source that discusses diagnosis of adults, it can be included. So far, we haven't found one. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

As you mentioned on Talk:Asperger syndrome #Recap, here's a reliable source on the subject:

• Tantam D (2003). "The challenge of adolescents and adults with Asperger syndrome". Child Adolesc Psychiatr Clin N Am. 12 (1): 143–63. PMID 12512403.

See its Challenge 5: diagnosis in adulthood. All it takes is for someone to read that and write it up. I may get around to it but I hope someone else beats me to it. Eubulides 06:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Here's another likely one, if its not already referenced in the Autism Spectrum Quotient article:

• M. R. Woodbury-Smith, J. Robinson, S. Wheelwright S. Baron-Cohen. [[1] "Screening Adults for Asperger Syndrome Using the AQ:A Preliminary Study of its Diagnostic Validity in Clinical Practice"]. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders. 35 (3): 331–335. doi:10.1007/s10803-005-3300-7. {{cite journal}}: Check |url= value (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Soarhead77 (talk) 21:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

You may or may not have a point. I myself was diagnosed at about age 11/12 (I'm 24 now). Be this an opinion, but I think part of it may be largely driven by the whole "let's think of the children" mentality. The treatment and views of people, are partially aged based (possibly even sometimes ageist tbh).

Like as an example, misbehavior... When a child misbehaves they may be punished/disciplined for acting out and when in public others might perceive the parents as being inconsistent and insufficient, but they get more of a pass because they're relatively young and naive, still fresh or relatively fresh to mutual or collective expectations for their standards of behavior. An adult on the other hand is not as lucky. It's generally interpreted and understood by society, largely consistent of neurotypicals who by majority rule tend to be ones to set the standards, that adults should know better and when acting a little bit off than normal get written off as being odd or when immature "not acting their age". Most of society mentally synchronizes sets of behavior with an age group.

But you see what you got there? Different views of individuals of different ages. Like I said, kids get more of a pass in misbehavior since they're kids any may not know better while adults don't get that as much. It's because childhood is commonly interpreted as innocence, while adulthood less so as thing change with a further step down one's longevity.

Because of childhood innocence, many people, often parents, feel the need to protect them in what ways we can. It's inbred as a basest animalistic instinct for survival of our species and our little tribes, such as a family, so the children are going to have the upperhand and focus put on them, considering the current state of many human minds on a basic level to protect, help, nurture, and feed the young while the adult are expected a certain level of self-sufficiency. The kids are viewed as needing it more than adults as a result.

This is part of the problem is the "think of the children" mentality I think...

I can clearly see the bias you're talking about. I've watched a relative few documentary pieces and other depictions of autistic individuals and it's clear that the focus is on children and a lot of the criteria and attention given is on the children. I still live at home, having problems with independent living of which I hope to work on, and my parents went to to a seminar with some political figures or representatives to see what they can do for me and the whole fecking thing was fixated on helping autistic children and teens, absolutely nothing being for adults and one elderly woman with a 35 year old autistic daughter apparently spoke up all frustrated and kind of mad that it was about nothing but resources for children and teens as well as teachers dealing with them, but nothing for adults. Autistic adults do in some ways seem to be left a little more in the dust.

I think fully well some criterion for adult autists is needed, but then again alas is the way of Wikipedia to have imbalance in articles and postings... I've been complaining about the same darn thing for the section on "heightism" which is terminally fixated 95+% on heightism against the short, not focusing anywhere near enough on how tall people have to deal with some forms of it (I should know, I'm 6'2.5" which is tall considering the average height for the American male is 5'9"). You might say the simple statement that I can do something about it and make the changes myself, but it would be hard considering the lack of sources to prove it and undoubtedly I'd probably run into conflict from someone deleting it saying one amongst a plethora of reasons from just being unnecessary, just an inconvenience, etc. I'd probably have to fight it and the same goes here for any additional text focused on adults.

It's not being fixed there and hasn't been since I first complained in their discussion section about it, so I doubt it will be here.

Note ppl that I haven't scanned over the entire article to see anything about adults with AS in here since I know this comment was over two years ago and things could have changed. I might look over it tomorrow. And yes ppl, I realize I'm ranting and that I'm just posting opinion, but if I can find some citations to help the adult end, I will.

Vgamer101 (talk) 08:55, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm 47 and I've been recently diagnosed with AS. First I had to take the AQ and meet the head of the department. Then, I spent three half-days in the hospital with a psychiatrist and several psychologists. My parents had also to spend a day in interviews about my childhood with the psychologists. I had to take several tests (amongst them, I noticed the WCST) and to answer to interviews. I got the results on three different stages : ADOS, ADI-R and WAIS-III. I dunno if this can be of any help. BIRDIE ^✉ 08:27, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

NVLD vs AS

All criteria of AS (especially ICD-10 and DSM-IV) can be meet also by people with non-PDD disorders like NVLD. Childern with NVLD can have:

• lack of eye contact

• routines

• magic/bizarre beliefs

• specific interests

• black-white thinking

• good drawing (but ritualized)

• flat affect

• odd prosody, idiosyncratically change of topic —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.6.106.22 (talk) 10:33, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I made this change to try to address the issue, citing Stein et al. 2004 (PMID 15194904). Eubulides (talk) 18:26, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

AS and Schizoid personality disorder

According to Gillberg, Schizoid personality disorder and other personality disorders have previously been used in place of Asperger syndrome. This seems likely because of the newness of AS as a diagnostic category. My source for this is Gillberg's chapter in the book "Autism and Asperger syndrome" edited by Uta Frith. I believe that Sula Wolff acknowledged that the children described in her book "Loners: the life path of unusual children" as “schizoid” resemble the group of autistic children described by Hans Asperger in his famous paper.

Some famous people who have been labelled as having AS by some and labelled as Schizoid by other authorities include Wittgenstein, Isaac Newton, and Einstein. Prof. M. Fitzgerald has found that writer Robert Walser met criteria for Schiziod PD and also AS, but I'm not sure if he recognizes Schiziod as a diagnosis. King Phillip II of Spain has been described as "autistic or schizotypal".

Is this a problem of differential diagnosis, or is it is a problem of there being or having been two different diagnoses in use for the one actual condition? Is it a fault in the diagnostic manuals and diagnostic practice? This needs to be explained clearly, or alternately in a blalanced way, in this Wikipedia article. Are some PDs nothing more than obsolete terms for AS? Are adults with AS more likely to have personality disorders? Are they more likely to be mislabelled with PDs?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.194.186 (talk • contribs) 05:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Fitzgerald is pretty speculative, and is better suited for People speculated to have been autistic, where it's already cited. The rest of the comment has good questions, but we'd need answers (plus reliable sources, as described in the next thread). Eubulides (talk) 05:15, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

From the DSM-IV-TR:

There may be great difficulty differentiating individuals with Schizoid Personality Disorder from those with milder forms of Autistic Disorder and from those with Asperger's Disorder. Milder forms of Autistic Disorder and Asperger's Disorder are differentiated by more severely impaired social interaction and stereotyped behaviours and interests.

--194.65.151.101 (talk) 09:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

AS and genetic syndromes?

I think mention should be made of the fact that people who have diagnosed genetic syndromes can be given a diagnosis of AS, and that some experts have argued that the personalities/cognitive profiles typically found in some genetic syndromes are autistic or autism-like. I know of a person who has Klinefelter syndrome who also has a diagnosis of AS, and I've heard that people with Down syndome can be diagnosed as autistic. Cohen syndrome has been argued to be autistic. My personal opinion is that the best way to describe such people is by reference to their diagnosed genetic syndome, which may have a specific cognitive profile and personality type, rather than the more vague and general category of AS, but I guess a diagnosis of AS could bring greater access to various types of support. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.194.186 (talk • contribs) 05:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a reasonable point, and could be made in the article, but it needs a reliable source to support it. For the sort of sources we're looking for, please see Wikipedia:Reliable sources (medicine-related articles). Eubulides (talk) 05:15, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The relationship between AS and dementia?

It is high time that someone gave an explanation of the relationship between AS and other types of autism and dementia, specifically early-onset dememtia. Tonight on the Australian current affairs TV show "Sunday Night" there was a story about "dementia". The whole thing was very sloppily done, the terms "dementia" and "Alzheimers" appearing to be used interchangeably, with obviously early-onset type described as simply "dementia". The first person interviewed in this story has apparently got "dementia" and I guess must be the early-onset type, and has two siblings who were also diagnosed with dementia at young ages (20s, 30s) and this woman has two teen offspring who apparently have "Asperger's autism". No one would believe that the "dementia" and "Asperger's autism" in this family are unrelated phenomena. To my knowledge, in general AS has not been linked with any type of dementia, so I guess that this family's AS must be an unusual type, if it is genuine AS at all. Link to web site: http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunday-night/

I have also noticed that some cases of early-onset dementia that have been discussed on Australian radio recently are in a number of ways similar to some descriptions of autism or AS. I am left wondering whether many cases of so-called AS and autism are more accurately described as executive dysfunction due to damage, disease or lack of development of the frontal lobes.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.194.186 (talk • contribs) 13:07, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Again, we need reliable sources in this area before we can write anything (see WP:Verifiability). It sounds like that TV program is not reliable. Eubulides (talk) 17:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I doubt that the TV program would completely misreport the diagnoses of a family with such serious issues. My guess is that the two diagnoses of AS are the questionable element. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.149.164 (talk • contribs) 13:08, 22 September 2009

Diagnosis in Adults

• PMID 19562011 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2695286/?tool=pubmed):

Box 2.DSM-IV extensions after Adult Asperger Assessment (AAA) (modified)

Ad A) Difficulties in understanding social situations and other people’s thoughts and feelings

Ad B) Tendency to think of issues as being black and white, rather than considering multiple perspectives in a flexible way Additionally: Qualitative impairments in verbal or nonverbal communication with at least three of the following symptoms:

1. Tendency to turn any conversation back on to self or own topic of interest
2. Marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others. Cannot see the point of superficial social contact, niceties, or passing time with others, unless there is a clear discussion point/debate or activity.
3. Pedantic style of speaking, inclusion of too much detail
4. Inability to recognize when the listener is interested or bored
5. Frequent tendency to say things without considering the emotional impact on the listener

Additionally: Impairment in at least one of the criteria relating to childhood imagination:

1. Lack of varied, spontaneous make believe play appropriate to developmental level
2. Inability to tell, write or generate spontaneous, unscripted or unplagiarized fiction
3. Either lack of interest in fiction (written, or drama) appropriate to developmental level or interest in fiction is restricted to its possible basis in fact (e.g. science fiction, history, technical aspects of film)

The review also includes a longer (more specific) version of the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria, so I'll update that in the article. MichaelExe (talk) 16:56, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

On second thought, it'd probably be better if someone who actually has the DSM-IV-TR to write and cite the diagnostic criteria, because although the criteria I've seen on several different websites are very similar, there are some small differences. MichaelExe (talk) 17:18, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Copyright problems with diagnostic criteria

The American Psychiatric Association has not released its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders into public domain, but claims copyright. The Wikimedia Foundation has received a letter of complaint (Ticket:2010030910040817, for those with access) about the use of their diagnostic criteria in this and a number of other articles. Currently, this content is blanked pending investigation, which will last approximately one week. Please feel free to provide input at the copyright problems board listing during that time. Individuals with access to the books would be particularly welcome in helping to conduct the investigation. Assistance developing a plan to prevent misuse of the APA's material on Wikipedia projects would also be welcome. Thank you. Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:20, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I have fixed the problem for this article, and have placed the results into Talk:Diagnosis of Asperger syndrome/Temp. Eubulides (talk) 18:29, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I've put your rewrite in place. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:06, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

When the hell will the diagnostic criteria be posted back up? It seems to me that this is a clear case of fair use (although I have anti-copyright leanings myself, so I could care less about violations).206.75.198.6 (talk) 16:36, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Gender Differences?

I was just wondering if it would be possible and/or necessary to include a section, or even just a paragraph, about the presentation differences of Aspergers Syndrome between boys and girls, since that complicates diagnosis as well. I would put it in myself, but I don't think I could navigate the relevant materials sufficiently and cite properly. --Clevomon 11:52, 22 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.130.166.209 (talk)

Diagnosis in different countries

Does it exist any statististics about the proportion of the population in different countries that have received the diagnosis? I would assume that some countries, particularly richer countries, have a better build out medical system and have therefore been more able to give people a diagnosis. --Oddeivind (talk) 10:04, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Very incomplete article

This article definitely leaves you wanting. That table under the heading, Multiple sets of diagnostic criteria, may look very neat, but it's very unsatisfying for somebody looking for some supplemental information. It leaves out a lot of the diagnostic criteria. I was curious, and I looked hard enough, and found the information somewhere else. For anyone looking to do the work, I'd suggest putting more information rather than a table that just says yes and no to a few items. I understand that there are a lot of sources to include, but for the sake of having a complete article, it'd be worth finding a way. Just a thought. Lighthead ^þ 00:27, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

How to explain abbreviations in quotations?

See section Differential diagnosis, abbreviation OCD should be explained:

"It is in nonretarded, rigid individuals on the autistic spectrum, especially those with so-called Asperger syndrome, that differences with less severely affected individuals with TS and OCD [=Obsessive Compulsive Disorder] may become blurred, or that both disorders may coexist."

or

"It is in nonretarded, rigid individuals on the autistic spectrum, especially those with so-called Asperger syndrome, that differences with less severely affected individuals with TS and OCD may become blurred, or that both disorders may coexist."

178.3.224.177 (talk) 08:32, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi 178.3.224.177! Quite right, good work! Lova Falk talk 08:21, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

 Fixed

Subsume DSM 5 ASD criteria into Asperger criteria Table

For now I replaced an apparent proposed diagnostic criteria of ASD to the actual criteria which is now in effect. Right now we have detailed quotes for "Autism Spectrum Disorder" diagnostic criteria and a table highlighting various Asperger diagnostic criteria. ASD diagnosis is not the subject of this article, Asperger's diagnosis is. I propose we eliminate the detailed ASD diagnoses and possibly add the highlights of the DSM 5 diagnoses to the existing AS diagnostic table which might require renaming the table.

Also I made several changes to reflect that the DSM 5 is not a proposal but has been in effect since May 2013. I changed relevant references of "Asperger's Syndrome" which is the ICD 10 name to "Asperger's Disorder" which was the DSM IV name. Also changed "Autism Spectrum Disorders" to "Autism Spectrum Disorder" which is the name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.90.53.33 (talk) 21:12, 12 July 2014 (UTC)