Talk:Die Kuranten

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: withdrawn by nominator, closed by AirshipJungleman29 talk 17:43, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

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• ... that the oldest Jewish newspaper was first published in 1686 in Amsterdam? Source: https://www.jstor.org/stable/23533539
  • Reviewed:
  • Comment: Willing to finesse the language of the hook to something more eye-catching

5x expanded by Kazamzam (talk). Self-nominated at 19:06, 24 September 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Die Kuranten; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Not a review, but you might want to link the target article from your proposed hook. Schwede66 19:13, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• Still not a review, but I've been wondering where "Die" in the title comes from. It's a definite article in German, but the Dutch don't use that. I'm wondering whether your reading of this German source somehow convinced you that the title should be Die Kuranten. Because if that's the case, well that's the source of your error / misunderstanding. Schwede66 21:18, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• @Schwede66:, thank you for your comment, I have linked the target article. To your second point, I didn't name or create the article. The Die of the title is the Yiddish definite plural article, although it is more commonly written today as di (Yiddish: די). Given that it's a Yiddish-language paper that seems appropriate, particularly different that the title is Kuranten (a plural noun) and that there are two forms of the publication, one published on Tuesdays and one on Fridays. It is also a title that has been used for the publication in English-language print since, per Google Books, 1985, if not earlier. I don't see how this is pertinent to the scope of the DYK review but I hope this clarifies your misunderstanding. Kazamzam (talk) 01:23, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Thanks. The target article is supposed to be linked in bold font. And given that it's a newspaper, it should be in italics, too, as per MOS:NAMESANDTITLES. Good to have clarified that "Die" is a definite article in Yiddish. It's not strictly necessary as part of the DYK review to sort out naming issues, but in a roundabout way, it is. When an article is on the main page, it gets thousands of eyes on it and if it's wrong, somebody will no doubt come along and fix it. Firstly, there's WP:DEFINITE and that suggests that "Die" shouldn't be part of the title. Chances are that someone will move the article while it's on the main page, and that would trigger WP:MPNOREDIRECT. Hence the item would turn up at WP:ERRORS, as only admins can fix redirects on the main page. As such, it's best to ensure that the title is correct before we put something up via DYK. With that in mind, do you believe that the article should be moved?
• And given that I'm commenting on all sorts of issues, I might as well do a proper review of this nomination. Schwede66 01:39, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• I don't think it needs to be changed given there are exceptions to WP:DEFINITE and one of these is The New York Times. Since the guideline explicitly mentions that newspapers are an exception to this, I think the current title is okay. I will double check in the archival material to confirm and get back to you. Thank you for your other suggestions and for being thorough. Kazamzam (talk) 01:50, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• It's absolutely not a problem to leave it the way it is. In that case, I will move-protect it for the time that it's on the main page – problem solved. Schwede66 02:40, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Expansion started yesterday and the article has gone from a short paragraph to a lot of prose; it's plenty long enough. The language is neutral. Referencing is not sufficient; I have tagged all paragraphs that are uncited but there is more content that ought to be referenced apart from those three instances. Earwig is clean. There is one prior DYK credit, hence a QPQ is not required. I cannot sign off on the hook; the source talks about the oldest known Yiddish newspaper in the world whereas the hook says the oldest Jewish newspaper – those are different things. The hook is easy to fix; referencing will require a bit more work. Schwede66 02:37, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Thank you for your review. I have added references for each of your tags but I agree there could be more - the majority of the information came from the Pach thesis (2014) and I didn't want to over-cite the same source but there are limited references because it's such a niche topic. I will continue working on this throughout the week.

The question of 'oldest Yiddish' vs. 'oldest Jewish' is contentious, but I think the sentence I have moved to the lede and the accompanying references make an argument for why this is the case, as opposed to Gazeta de Amsterdam. That is the oldest Yiddish publication is, as far as I have seen, undisputed in the scholarly literature and I am fine updating the hook to reflex that as more neutral language that would not be disputed. Kazamzam (talk) 14:27, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

The way we deal with DYK hooks is that we propose alternatives as ALTx. If you’ve got a different wording in mind, please write it down as ALT1. Don’t amend hooks previously proposed. Schwede66 15:21, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

@Kazamzam: Do you have any ALT hooks you would like to propose below? Z1720 (talk) 19:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Kazamzam: has not responded to the ping above, even though they have been editing on Wikipedia. I am marking this as rejected unless they or another editor wishes to proceed with this nomination and propose additional hooks below. Z1720 (talk) 17:31, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

@Z1720:: thank you for your message. I would like to keep the hook as the original 'oldest Jewish newspaper' as I feel that this is supported by the references currently in the article. Is it possible to keep the submission with the original hook, particularly if I include more references?

I will say that, while I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner to your original ping, I was rather put off from continuing with this nomination by the comments above which were quite condescending. It seemed to imply that I didn't know basic information (i.e. the correct definite article) about the topic that I was proposing for a DYK despite having done hours of research and reading on it which the reviewer, if I may presume, has not; the mistaken suggestion about WP:DEFINITE, etc. My first experience with DYK for Wagner Natural Area was very positive and the reviewer was really helpful, so it was surprising to get these comments that did not seem intended to improve the article at all. Best, Kazamzam (talk) 18:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@Kazamzam: I have removed the rejected symbol above. I won't comment on the Die concern, but I think the intention was to figure out if it should be included or not. I think the Jewish/Yiddish concern is that the informaiton from the hook does not match the source used to verify the information: This needs to be addressed before this hook can be approved. If any wording is changed from the hook, please do not change the proposed hook above but instead post a new suggestion below as "ALT1" (this helps reviewers follow the discussion. Feel free to ping me if you have any questions. Z1720 (talk) 19:26, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

When you refer to the comments above which were quite condescending, you can only mean my initial queries. I have looked over that once more and fail to see why that could be perceived as condescending. I asked questions, gave a reason why I asked those questions (I note that in the German source that I quoted, it says "Die Kuranten", i.e. the definite article was not part of the newspaper's name as it wasn't included in italics), and you replied with a good explanation. Problem solved. Isn't that a totally normal part of editor interaction? Schwede66 01:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

The very first sentence of the article states that it is a Yiddish-language periodical, not a German or Dutch one. You assumed that I had an "error/misunderstanding" and had been mistakenly convinced by one article, rather than the possibility that you were not familiar with this subject. And that's a surprising assumption to make, given that a) you seem to be unfamiliar with Yiddish definite articles, otherwise the grammar of Die in the title would have immediately be clear and b) I effectively rewrote this article from scratch which would require me to know basic information like the name. If you had asked why the article was Die, rather than assuming right away that I had a misunderstanding about the most basic part of an article I spent hours writing, I would have gladly explained that without any hard feelings. That would have been a totally normal part of editor interaction. Kazamzam (talk) 04:57, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

This needs a different reviewer. I won't be signing off on the "oldest Jewish newspaper" claim as I stated above. Somebody else might be happy with the sources. I asked for an ALT hook but nothing's been forthcoming. Schwede66 20:56, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Kazamzam: - I have asked for quote as I cannot see behind paywall. Please ask on my talk page if you would like someone with absolutely no knowledge of the subject to take a fresh look at this. Chidgk1 (talk) 12:06, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

• Hello @Chidgk1:, I'm not sure the format in which you would like me to quote the source that is behind a paywall. I have accessed it through my institution's library and have it as a PDF. I could try adding it to Internet Archive but it's a few paragraphs of text. Do you have a suggestion for how to incorporate it into the body of the article and not look shoehorned in or awkward? Kazamzam (talk) 22:08, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

• I don't think we need the whole PDF. Suggest you use Visual editor and fill in the "quote" parameter on the cite Chidgk1 (talk) 12:17, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

• That wasn't my question. I'm asking a) where in the article do I include that source, i.e. starting a new section so that it doesn't interrupt the flow of the article and b) how would you recommend making the reference, which is from a copyrighted material, available when it is behind a paywall for just about everyone. I was able to access it via my institution's library but I doubt it would be legal for me to upload that to Internet Archive because it's not fair use. Kazamzam (talk) 17:58, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

• @Schwede66 and Z1720: ALT1: ... that one of the oldest known Jewish newspapers was first published in Amsterdam in 1686? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viriditas (talk • contribs) 20:16 and 20:25, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

• I think that's not a very interesting DYK hook. I would rather write the article for the Gazetta di Amsterdam, which more experts consider the oldest Jewish newspaper and then submit that for this hook about the oldest Jewish newspaper instead. I am trying to incorporate Chidgk1's comment about providing a quote from a hard to find source but I'll get back to you on that.Kazamzam (talk) 22:13, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Multiple issues here. Many sentences lack citations, and I can't approve this article while there's a maintenance template on it. And I'm not approving 'first Jewish newspaper' either, for the reasons above, though 'first Yiddish-language newspaper' would be interesting.--Launchballer 14:31, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

• @Launchballer: Thank you for your comment. I have added references to a number of sentences (more to come) and added a section to give weight to the claim of the oldest Jewish newspaper. As I mentioned above, the reference that has the maintenance template is problematic because it's been impossible for me to find an open-source version to support that claim. However I have added another reference to that specific sentence and the section at the bottom of the page contains additional citations. Please let me know what you think and I will continue working on this. Thank you, Kazamzam (talk) 17:56, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@Kazamzam: There are still maintenance templates and unsourced sections. Can we have some progress on this please?--Launchballer 11:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Kazamzam has been editing Wikipedia this week but has not edited this article. I have left a note on Kazamzam's talk page, but if they do not respond in a couple of days I think this should be closed as abandoned (unless someone else wants to take over the nomination). Z1720 (talk) 18:38, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the follow-up. I have added citations to the unsourced statements tagged and removed the maintenance tags. Please let me know if any other corrections are necessary. It's my first time at my family home in 4 years so responses may be delayed. Thank you, Kazamzam (talk) 13:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Very good. ALT?--Launchballer 20:54, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I've made the argument in the article specifically on why this is the oldest Jewish newspaper and I'm submitting that as the hook for the DYK. If we were going to discuss oldest Yiddish newspaper or one of the oldest Jewish newspapers as ALTs, I'd like to get the opinion of someone from WikiProject Judaism as someone with more subject expertise. Kazamzam (talk) 14:12, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Hmm. In the section that contains the word 'oldest', there are four references, precisely one of which I can see, and there may be something in one of the other sources. Okay, I'll AGF on them and approve ALT0.--Launchballer 15:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

• I've reopened the discussion as per Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Prep 1: Die Kuranten (nom). Schwede66 00:39, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• wipes egg off face* Yeah, I think you should propose an ALT for this, preferably one that doesn't have 'first' or 'oldest' in it. I'm thinking something like "that the Dutch newspaper Die Kuranten was for a Jewish readership that was largely unable to read Dutch newspapers" but I'll have a think overnight.--Launchballer 01:02, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• I would like to withdraw the nomination. Kazamzam (talk) 03:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)