Talk:Diplomatic history of World War I

New article

this is a new article, with some portions copy from and it credited to other articles. Rjensen (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Central Powers

This article seems to deal only with the Allies. There were two sides in the war. What about the Central Powers ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 00:11, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

right. i'm working on that now. Rjensen (talk) 05:32, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

American entry in 1917

the section on " American entry in 1917" was copied from "Citizendium" cc-by-SA3 http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/World_War_I,_American_entry Rjensen (talk) 05:32, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Assessment

This is a good start, Rjensen Let me know when you've updated some material. There are several wiki shortcuts we can use. All paragraphs should have some kind of citation. auntieruth (talk) 19:14, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Much of the information in the first paragraph would be considered

, and in several cases

. Taylor's material, although useful, is well-outdated, and by no means comes from a neutral point of view. It is still usable to show how views of the war changed over time, but I wouldn't rely on it as much as you seem to be doing. auntieruth (talk) 19:33, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments-- it is still a work in progress and I will be adding footnotes, esp where you suggested. As for AJP Taylor, I used The Struggle for Mastery in Europe 1848–1918 Which has generally been praised for its diplomatic history--it is not especially controversial. Perhaps you are thinking of the raging controversies over his book on the second world war, which I did not use. it is The Origins of the Second World War and deals with Hitler in the 1930s. that book is indeed controversial and I never used it in any way. Rjensen (talk) 07:40, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Struggle for Mastery is indeed fairly controversial now, and has been considerably refuted. Use with discretion please. Same with Fritz Fischer. They will be useful to discuss in historiography section, certainly. Also, I suggest you keep this strongly focused on diplomatic aspects, and leave the propaganda aspects on their own. Of course they must be mentioned, but in sum, not in detail. If you have detail, perhaps add to the propaganda article? auntieruth (talk) 15:57, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Ok I replaced Taylor's book. Fischer is not mentioned and not used. As for propaganda: that was a powerful tool used by the foreign ministry in major countries to shape war aims and to affect other countries' morale and neutrality. For example numerous historians emphasize the success of British propaganda in inducing the US to enter the War. Historians also emphasize how propaganda came of age in WW1 as a new tool-- See International Relations Today: Concepts and Applications (2010) p 81ff; Strachan, ed The Oxford Illustrated History of the First World War ch 16. Rjensen (talk) 16:29, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

(←) You might also look at Niall Ferguson, The Pity of War: Explaining World War One. auntieruth (talk) 17:09, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

thanks-- I will do so. now that the specific factual issues you raised have all been solved I hope you can delete the " factual accuracy is disputed." tag. Rjensen (talk) 17:49, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

About word usage (moved from user talk page)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

At Diplomatic history of World War I - however, using "infected" for an idea (an not merely an emotion) does let the reader make a link between the idea of communism and that of disease (since infected is usually more closely associated with it's usage relative to diseases than to this more imaginative usage - Merriam-Webster lists the meaning you were referring to (3b) together with "contaminate, corrupt" (meaning 3a) (according to the online version at least) 135.23.202.24 (talk) 02:58, 19 December 2017 (UTC) The usage of "infected" could also fall under WP:IDIOM or, stretching it a bit to include usage of synonyms for other words, WP:SAY. 135.23.202.24 (talk) 03:10, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

An infectious disease is one that spreads from person to person by contact--unlike cancer, say, which is caused by environmental conditions. so that is exactly the idea to be conveyed. The Merriam Webster exemplar shows it is not necessarily negative. Rjensen (talk) 09:14, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

I wasn't arguing that it is necessarily negative. I was arguing that in this context (with a political idea), the language might be inappropriate since it subconsciously establishes a link in the reader's mind between communism and infection/disease. Also, per WP:SAY, don't use synonyms when it's unnecessary or, in this case, has an implicit POV, even if a purely semantic analysis reveals the usage is correct (much like saying "claimed", "admitted", ...). 135.23.202.24 (talk) 13:23, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

let people worry about their own subconscious fears--you asked for dictionary approval and you have it now. It's common political terminology around the world eg 1) "Populated mainly by predominantly Gaelic-speaking clansmen, who were still used to a life within a social structure where the authority of the chief was not questioned, the Highlands were believed to be far less likely to become infected with radicalism than most other parts of Scotland. " [Scotland and the French Revolutionary War, 1792-1802 (2015) - Page 73]; 2) "Her [Spain's] colonies on our continent, already infected with radicalism, and endangered by the democracy propagated from our shores, threaten every day to fall from her, are a burden rather than a benefit, and cost her much more than ...." [Speech ... on the treaty for the annexation of Texas, 1844]; 3) "The Zanzibar society seems to belong to the category of highly politicised societies. There are very few people, if any, who might be labelled as politically indifferent. Almost everybody is infected with politics." (2001); 4) Stalin, 1937: "Here you have a glaring example of how easily and “simply” some of our inexperienced comrades become infected with political blindness as a result of having their heads turned by economic successes. Such are the dangers associated with successes, with achievements. Such are the reasons why our Party comrades, elated with economic successes, have forgotten about facts of an international and internal character which are of essential importance for the Soviet Union...." ; 5) Ricardo (England) 1817 " to confound all intellectual distinction; to busy the mind continually in supplying the body's wants; until at last all classes should be infected with the plague of universal poverty.”; 6) Michael Oakeshott, (England, 1962) "And only a society already infected with Rationalism will the conversion of the traditional resources of resistance to the tyranny of Rationalism into a self conscious ideology be considered a strengthening of those resources.” etc etc Rjensen (talk) 13:44, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

And what do all these have in common? They're criticizing whatever the subject matter is: "our inexperienced comrades become infected with political blindness" "infected with the plague of universal poverty." It being common terminology doesn't making it right, see ad populum. 135.23.202.24 (talk) 13:46, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

add David Hume 1767: " Fears, jealousies, and antipathies were every day multiplying in parliament: And though the people were strongly infected with the same prejudices, the king hoped, that, by dissolving the present cabals, a set of men might be chosen more moderate in their pursuits, and less tainted with the virulence of faction." Yes -- use by the reliable sources makes it "right" for Wikipedia. This encyclopedia summarizes the RS and does not introduce new ideas, -- and it downplays the personal views of its editors. "all these have in common?" -- wrong: it is a good think in Zanzibar (" There are very few people, if any, who might be labelled as politically indifferent. Almost everybody is infected with politics.") and a good thing in Spain's colonies, infected by American ideas about democracy. Rjensen (talk) 14:03, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

You can't see the forest for the trees. Ok, sorry I missed that one, you still haven't addressed my argument. It's not because most sources use infected that the usage is correct and neutral. In fact, some sources you link do not seem to be neutral at all. Speech ... on the treaty for the annexation of Texas, ; Stalin, 1937 ; WP policy also appears to be consistent with not always using the same terminology as sources, for example WP:SURVIVEDBY. and the Spain example doesn't seem positive, at least in the little context that is given here - the author links "infected with radicalism" with "threaten to fall from her", which from at least a Spanish POV would be a bad thing... 135.23.202.24 (talk) 14:08, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

re Spain--the American speaker was VERY happy that American radicalism & democracy was undermining the Spanish empire. what is your current argument? "infected" in politics means an idea moving from person to person--there is indeed a sense that it is "radical" in the sense of a threat to the political status quo -- but that is what the article says was happening. the passage you objected to = " When Russia left the war in 1917 these [Russian] prisoners returned home [to Russia] and many carried back support for revolutionary ideas that quickly infected their comrades." Rjensen (talk) 15:34, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Except I wasn't talking about the US POV. I didn't object to the whole passage. I just suggested replacing "quickly infected" with "were quickly shared with". This is in line with WP:SAY which says that synonyms should be avoided if it can bring undue POV in an article. I am not saying we should debate the merits of communism or it's failed implementations. Only that we should avoid using "infected" in the same way it is used in political speech, because Wiki isn't political speech... 135.23.202.24 (talk) 15:50, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

"shared with" is too tame and nonpolitical (people share jokes. Here we mean trying to get people to overthrow the government.). Article is talking about Germany sending prisoners to Russia knowing the would spread a radical threat to Tsars. -- that is politics. as for WP:SAY -- ??? what section or rule do you refer to? Rjensen (talk) 16:03, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm interpreting the spirit of the rule, which is "do not use needlessly loaded terms when simpler, neutral, apolitical expressions can be used". The policy explicitly cites the verb say because it's the most common form (after all, people talk a lot and say a lot of things). As for "too tame" - maybe "which quickly circulated among their comrades."? Webster gives 'to become well-known or widespread - rumors circulated through the town' 135.23.202.24 (talk) 16:18, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Or maybe "propagated"? This also gives the impression of radical (common roots with "propaganda") but avoids linking with disease as in the infected case - while propaganda is a more appropriate link since it is political speech.135.23.202.24 (talk) 16:31, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

It's not loaded. everyone agrees on what Germany was trying to do-- upset the status quo. Other suggestions fail to make it clear what was happening. Rjensen (talk) 17:31, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

The use of the term "infected" is not used in the article to describe the action of the German decision-makers. It is used to describe the revolutionary ideas (i.e. communism), which "infected" the Russians. The term "infected" is used to describe the propagation of communism, not the intent of the German decision-makers who caused this. Therefore, we shouldn't make a judgement on communism or it's (failed) implementations, or even those behind it. We should judge whether using "infected" to describe a political idea is neutral. I think it isn't and we should use other verbs which do not bring a link with disease, such as "propagated" or "circulated". 135.23.202.24 (talk) 21:52, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

the intent of the Germans was to spread anti-govt sentiments in Russia thru the released prisoners. A POV edit means that reliable sources disagree--and there is zero evidence of any such disagreement--you have not cited any RS at all. Rjensen (talk) 08:15, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

I just said that we shouldn't give a darn about the intent of the Germans. My argument is not about Germans (or their intent) or communism, but rather about using "infected" to describe the spread of a political idea, which brings too much similarities to "disease", despite it's semantically correct meaning. "Propagated" or "circulated" again bring out the rapid spread of the idea (which is correct but not POV, since it did spread rapidly because of the existing situation), and the intent of the Germans is explained in the same paragraph anyway:"Meanwhile, Berlin, aware of the near-revolutionary unrest in Russia in the previous decade, launched its own propaganda war. The Foreign Ministry disseminated fake news reports that had the desired effect of demoralizing Russian soldiers.[63] Berlin's most successful tactic was to support far-left Russian revolutionaries [...] ". Also, using infected to point out that the Germans caused it, in addition to the fact that it doesn't really achieve that goal, is not really correct. The political climate in Russia was already unstable and this caused the possibility of a change of regime, which the Germans exploited - but they weren't the sole cause of it. If it wasn't for the willingness of revolutionaries, Russia's poor military (and political) leadership, and the already demoralized work force (note that Russia had a prior revolution in 1905), the Germans could have sent whoever they wanted, there wouldn't have been any revolution... The article on the February revolution cites: "The February 1917 revolution...grew out of prewar political and economic instability, technological backwardness, and fundamental social divisions, coupled with gross mismanagement of the war effort, continuing military defeats, domestic economic dislocation, and outrageous scandals surrounding the monarchy. (Rabinovitch, 2008, p. 1)". 135.23.202.24 (talk) 14:15, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

"infect" has been used by political historians for 250 years without any dispute and does not in any way reflect any Wiki POV. As for the multiple Russian revolutions, most RS give great attention to losing the war to the Germans. They all mention how Berlin proved decisive in getting Lenin into Russia from his exile. Hundreds of thousands of radicalized angy ex-POWs played a role in person-to-person radicalization. Rjensen (talk) 16:02, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

I just said that for the purpose of this dispute, I dont give an eff about Germany or the intent of it's leaders or even Lenin! The issue is the word "infect", not what happened (which neither of us seems to disagree about). "Infect" has been used about plenty of historians, as you say, but almost in all cases to reflect a negative (or at the very least mocking) opinion of the subject (as in the Spain case, where the author uses it to mock the Spanish POV of the "infection by radical democratic ides". If the sources have a negative opinion of communism, that can be noted. However, whether the POWs were radicals or to which extent, we cannot simply use "infect" to describe a larger political idea. Even the multiple articles on nazism or fascism, which are incontestably bad, don't use the word "infected" or any variant thereof. Why would we use it in relation to communism, which is less despised than either of the far right ideologies (and that, despite that fact that in practice, it had a hard time achieving it's stated goals of "economic equality" or other idealized dreams)? 135.23.202.24 (talk) 16:38, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

there is no pov -- the idea was to destabilize the status quo. if someone in 2017 likes the status quo in 1917 hey're angry at the Germans, but not at the word. oppose the status quo then applaud the Germans but in either case "infect" is exactly the best term. In the Spanish example the author was opposed to the Spanish status quo and welcomed the infection. Likewise Zanzibar. As for communists, I note that Stalin used the term himself so it's not a naughty word for them. Rjensen (talk) 19:31, 20 December 2017 (UTC).

The American author uses the word ironically... yes to applaud the idea of democracy but he does so ironically by mocking the Spanish status quo, saying it is "infected". As for Stalin 1. it's a translation, so we don't know what the usage of the word in Russian might have been - maybe it has more or less of a negative connotation than in English 2. uses infected in a negative sense, i.e. "infected with political blindness". The Zanzibar example is the exception that proves the rule. You don't seem to have read my comment about the use of infected in articles related to other (more) extreme ideologies. I'll go ask for a third opinion. 135.23.202.24 (talk) 20:12, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

all these historians get it wrong for 250 years??!--but you have not cited anyone who supports your private reading. Rjensen (talk) 20:25, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Please cite for me the part where I say that historians are wrong... 135.23.202.24 (talk) 20:35, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

do you agree that the Russian ex pow's did cause their comrades to hold anti-status quo attitudes or not? Rjensen (talk) 20:50, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

I thought that was clear - yes, the attitude of the people who caused the Russian revolution, including the POWs, was clearly anti-status quo. I thought the dispute was about the term "infected". Have you read the part where I wrote about the use of the term in articles related to fascism or nazism ([1])?

Favorable usage is common: 1) "The city was a modern metropolis but still deeply segregated [in 1950s]. Leopoldville became infected by the ideas of independence and political liberation." [PALGRAVE

ENCYCLOPEDIA OF IMPERIALISM (2016)]; 2) "In the simplest situation there are two populations, I(t) denotes the number of already infected (either with biological objects capable of transmit infection or with revolutionary ideas to be transferred to others) individuals, and S(t) is the number of susceptible individuals." [Peter Erdi - 2007]; 3) Collier Dictionary definition #2: revolutionize " to inspire or infect with revolutionary ideas: they revolutionized the common soldiers." Rjensen (talk) 10:23, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

It's not that favorable usage never happens - it's just that it's less often used when there could be ambiguity whether it's favorable or not. In this case, I prefer not creating any ambiguity (since readers might judge the term differently) and using the more neutral "propagated" or other variants I proposed. As for infect, what you are citing is examples, while we should be looking at reliable sources and concluding from what they say whether the term is neutral or not. The Collins dictionary gives multiple plausible meanings for infect, one being "to affect, esp[ecially] adversely, as if by contagion", and gives as example "His urge for revenge would never infect her." Oxford Dictionnaries (online) has "(of a negative feeling or idea) take hold of or be communicated to (someone)". The slight disagreement between these 2 sources suggests that while the use can be occasionally positive, it is usually seen as negative (because of the more common usage of the word being linked with disease). 135.23.202.24 (talk) 16:45, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

For propagate, Webster gives "to cause to spread out and affect a greater number or greater area" or alternatively "to foster growing knowledge of, familiarity with, or acceptance of (something, such as an idea or belief)", which both share much of their meaning with "infected", yet avoid the possibility of looking as if we were judging it in Wikipedia's voice (whether positive or negative).

Would you mind summarizing your view below so we can get the opinion of somebody else? Thanks! 135.23.202.24 (talk) 16:45, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Third opinion

François Robere (talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.

Viewpoint by 135.23.202.24

The spirit of WP:SAY tells us that using non-neutral synonyms should be avoided, even if it is the word used in the source - thus, it is my opinion that using "infected" to describe the spread of a political idea, no matter it's merits or the motivations of those behind it, brings a non-neutral POV to the article, especially given that other, simpler terms which do not have a link with "infection/disease", such as "propagated" or "circulated", can be used. 01:19, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Viewpoint by Rjensen

....

Third opinion by François Robere

Rjensen has not summarized his view, but reading through the above discussion I can the gist of it, and I completely agree with the IP editor.

1) Whatever the use of "infected" may be in literature, this is an encyclopedia meant for common consumption, and so must consider terms' common usage. "Infected"'s common usage is inextricably tied with sickness and disease, and by way of metaphor with unwanted ideologies and even people; indeed this is also the case in about half the citation brought by Rjensen.

2) On the other side is the question of accurately representing a source: is the use of that source justified without using infected? The answer is obviously yes, as there are many alternatives, such as "convinced", "swayed" and "supported", and even - in certain cases - "infectious idea" rather than "infected persons". If it was particularly relevant - and it isn't, assuming neutrality on behalf of the source - one could use "infected" in a sidenote.

Bottom line: Wiki is meant for mass consumption, and as such common parlance is used where possible. Here there are alternatives from common parlance that don't alter the meaning of the sentence or intention of the source, and do not convey a POV, making them much preferable to the term in question. François Robere (talk) 20:05, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Italy?

Why there is no section for Italy? - Altenmann >talk 05:39, 2 January 2020 (UTC)