Talk:Disappearance of Aimee Semple McPherson

Untitled

For earlier editing history on this page, see Aimee Semple McPherson, from which its first draft was derived. JMDoran (talk) 21:30, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

The ballad of Aimee McPherson

The text reads as if Pete Seeger wrote the satirical song as well as sang it. The consensus, however, appears to be that he did not write the song and no one really knows who did. A lengthy, informed discussion is here: http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=19743. I'll tweak the sentence to remove the implication without changing the essential meaning. Jim Stinson (talk) 00:03, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Seeger's performance of the song is on You Tube, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZS5aN6s_2c.Jim Stinson (talk) 00:11, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Mexicali Rose?

"Mexicali Rose" may well have been a nickname used by Daniel Mark Epstein(Sister Aimee, 1993), and subsequent publications including various Wikipedia authors such s myself picking up on it. However, I have been unable to find the term "Mexicali Rose" in conjunction with the woman kidnapper in any article or book prior to his book publication date of 1993. All other publications prior to that time including McPherson herself refer to the woman kidnapper as "Rose." In the Hardy Impeachment transcripts of 1929, as hired by Mildred Kennedy, private detectives did attempt to follow up on a rumor of a "Rose," in Mexicali, Baja California, Mexico, Hence I'm changing "Mexicali Rose" to Rose and including an appropriate cite note. In the meantime I shall keep on the alert for a period news article referring to her as "Mexicali Rose," SteamWiki (talk) 23:29, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Redundant?

Currently the article contains the following sentence:

Several ransom notes and other communications were sent to the Temple, some were relayed to the police, who thought they were hoaxes and others dismissed as fraudulent.

Aren't hoaxes by definition "fraudulent"? Unschool 19:09, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Edited sentence to remove redundancy SteamWiki (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

"Presidente" Ernesto Boubion

Presidente Ernesto Boubion That is his title based on the sources. SteamWiki (talk) 23:07, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

I looked at two or three sources and found inconsistency. Given that such a title is not consistent with his metropolitan position, I'd like to see what you seen (other than a reference to him with the title indicates that this was his actual position). I've concluded from what I read that it was a nickname, not a title. Unschool 01:20, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Unschool 01:23, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

As you pointed out in your edit; Agua Prieta did not have mayors until the 1950s (after which it has not had "presidents)"

From Ramon R. Gonzales Affidavit (1926) reprinted in Its Time The Truth Be Told article

The Presidente of Agua Prieta lived just across the street from me and at about three (3) o'clock AM I called said Presidente and he came over to my house. I asked him what we should do with this woman and he said hunt some American who could talk Mexican good and bring him there. I went, also the President, to a saloon ... Note the term "mayor" is not used.

As per Lately Thomas -The Vanishing Evangelist: The Aimee Semple McPherson Kidnapping Affair(1959): The town presidente, Ernesto Boubion, lived across the street. Gonzales ran there, but the mayor was not at home. (place this phrase into Google and the book will pull up, no page reference though). Both terms "presidente" and "mayor" appear; the latter term probably used by the author to better explain Boubion's position. SteamWiki (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Very interesting. I think it appears that the title back then was "Presidente", but the position, especially in comparison to other places, was essentially that of "mayor". Perhaps, as Mexico became more integrated with the world in the mid-20th century, they realized that the title "Presidente" sounded strange or at least confusing. (Or perhaps the President of Mexico just wanted to have the title for himself.). Unschool 02:08, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

NPOV

This needs a careful edit for neutrality. As a first pass, removal of non-neutral of adjectives and adverbs -- Undated comment by someone or other

The whole article needs a machete taken to it. Just changing all the references to "Aimee Semple McPherson" to read "McPherson" would reduce the length by 17%. Other gems (in Wikipedia's voice!):

• The crowd of onlookers, packed into the courtroom, listening to every word that the witnesses say in the attempt to substantiate the conspiracy charges against McPherson and her mother. There was room for only three rows of spectators in the tiny courtroom.
• She told how she used her garments to shield herself from the afternoon sun and carefully stepped around any shaggy bushes in her path. In the evening, lights from a town guided her to its streets. Terrified by the unexpected savagery of nearby barking dogs behind a fence, she entered the yard of a Mexican couple, R. R. Gonzales and his wife. Her story was transmitted and transcribed across telegraph and phone lines becoming front-page international news.
• With pictures of her prominently appearing in the newspapers, the unanswered question McPherson gave in response to all the witnesses was "why didn't they report the matter and secure the $25,000 reward that was offered for me?"
• Some prosecution witnesses stated that when they saw McPherson in Carmel, she had short hair, and furor ensued she was currently wearing fake hair swatches piled up to give the impression of longer tresses. McPherson, as requested by her lawyer, stood up, unpinned her hair, which fell abundantly around her shoulders, shocking the witnesses and others into embarrassed silence.
• Prosecution witness and grocery delivery boy Ralph Swanson stated that McPherson answered the door when he delivered groceries to a home there. In an interview, as released by a newspaper, he stated seeing three physicians leaving the Carmel cottage late one night. The names of the three doctors, prominent citizens of Carmel, were published. A defense lawyer stated this gave weight to rumor that the ten day visit was for an abortion. The news article created the belief the three prominent citizens of Carmel made an unprofessional call and participated in felonious conduct. The office records of a San Francisco physician suspected of being an abortionist were also ransacked by newspaper representatives. The defense chided the witness as an inexperienced youth giving a thoughtless and false statement. McPherson's near death medical operation in 1914, which prevented her from having more children, was already part of the public record. When challenged about the abortion claim with a request to pay for the medical exam to prove it, the newspaper which printed the story backed down.
• Tipped by a reporter, police seize a blue trunk allegedly owned by Ormiston, which contained garments supposedly belonging to McPherson. The implication was if her items were in his trunk, the two might be lovers. However, because the trunk was originally in storage at Jacksonville, Florida, a location thousands of miles away during the period of the disappearance, neither Ormiston nor the evangelist could have placed the incriminating items in the trunk. On further scrutiny, what womanly contents the trunk contained were so incongruous in size, style and fashion, that no reasonably proportioned person could wear them in dignity. Note: When the police finished with the trunk, rather than turning it over to Ormiston, its presumed owner, it was placed in general custody where anyone could claim it (in part by this and from other known information, Cox purports the trunk never belonged to Ormiston, but was a fabricated piece of evidence originating from a newspaper reporter, who then dropped the "lead" for the police to investigate). Ben Cohen, chief of detectives (top) is inspecting a pair of shoes found in the trunk and (below) he looks at the trunk's contents.

That last one is a hidden comment memorializing what was apparently an image caption. A special prize for

Bernice Morris also stated that she had a photo made up of persons posing as the kidnappers and disguised them based on McPherson description. McPherson was shown the image represented to her as an actual photo of her assailants. Allegedly, McPherson's reaction to it was as a genuine identification. Since only actors were in the image, Morris took it as proof that McPherson was penetrating a fraud by identifying them as her captors. McPherson denied Morris' contention; the subjects in the photo were in heavy shadow and the expletive Morris claimed she used when seeing the photo was one not known to have been said by the evangelist in times of surprise.

Probably "Leapin' lizards!" EEng 02:35, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Text of the Madera Tribune Constable Ash interview

Probably have work on a better summary than what exists to include in the article

It having been charged by those of an impartial mind Interested In the Aimee McPherson case that the entire facts have not been given to the public, it is desired by neutral parties in Madera that the following from the Angeles Sentinel as given to the people of Madera: In an interview with Constable O. A. Ash of Douglas, Arizona, a special staff correspondent of the San Bernardino Dally Sun, in a recent issue, reports that Constable Ash denounces the prosecution and the Los Angeles press. He declares that “honest facts concerning the case of Aimee Semple McPherson have been withheld from the public’’ and that Los Angeles newspapers had deliberately misinformed their readers regarding important phases of the evangelist's kidnapping story.

The Daily Sun story follows: “The constable stopped in Redlands this morning to visit his aunt and uncle, the Rev. and Mrs. Geo. Garner of the Citrus avenue M. R. Church, South, before continuing his return Journey from Los Angeles, where he testified on behalf of Mrs. McPherson. “In the first place,” Constable Ash stated, "there is no such place as the desert with scorching sands, prickly cactus and the kind of brush that would tear clothes and scratch shoes; that is .there is no such region in the district where Mrs. Mc-Pherson was said to have made her escape from the famous shack of Agua Prieta. I don't know why the public has been misled concerning the topography of that country, because that so called Sonora desert is the other extreme. It is grassy country, ideal pasture land, with plenty of springs of water. The altitude of that misnamed 'desert is 5000 feet.

“And 'Aimee’s shack’ has been found,” he continued. “I have seen the five-gallon oil can which was used by Mrs. McPherson to cut her bonds. Her hands and feet were not bound with rope, but with strips of cloth similar to bed ticking. “Los Angeles newspapers certainly can lie. While eating my lunch in Los Angeles the other day I purchased a newspaper which gave a full account of the testimony of M. R. Irvine, a photographer from Douglas. But Irvine had not yet been on the witness stand and did not get to testify until two and one-half hours after I read his alleged testimony in the paper. Furthermore, In several instances when I answered ‘yes’ on the witness stand, I was quoted in the newspapers as saying ‘no.’ Witnesses have been misquoted in many instances.

“Great concern is roused because of the report that Mrs. McPherson had hiked 20 miles across the wild desert without scarring her shoes and tearing her clothes into shreds. Please observe that the shoes I now have on have not the slightest scratch, yet I walked days and nights over the grassy country in search of Mrs. McPherson’s trail. Mrs. McPherson's ankles were swollen from the long walk she took. I noticed the swelling, I also saw holes in her stockings, though the newspapers denied this. One pocket was torn from her gingham dress, too. When I testified in Los Angeles on Tuesday and Wednesday I wore a silk-finished alpaca suit which contained no blemishes, despite the tact that I had worn it constantly two days and two nights when I finally arrived at the shack which the evangelist had described to me."

“In my opinion, the shack is about 18 miles from Douglas. The evangelist guessed she had walked 20 miles. The maximum temperature reached the day Mrs. McPherson walked across the grassy country was 96 degrees; at least, that’s what it was in Douglas. “John Anderson, the cab driver who brought Mrs. McPherson across the border at the request of the mayor of Agua Prieta, did not heed the mayor's order to take her to the hospital because the woman in a semi-conscious condition continually called for the police. Therefore, Anderson took her first to the Douglas police station. That is how I learned of the case immediately. I had been a police officer or a deputy sheriff since 1899, and I am now serving my second term as constable. “I know the border country well and I have had considerable training in tracking. So when I heard the evangelist’s story I organized a party to search for the shack and to hunt for the kidnapers.

"Accompanied by an Indian and Leslie Gatllff, lieutenant of the Douglas police department, I backtrailed Mrs. McPherson, following her tracks along a fence which runs due east from Douglas toward Niggerhead mountain. After going nine miles we followed the woman’s tracks south along the Galardo ranch fence for another nine miles. During this latter stretch there was a distance of nearly two miles where the trail could not be found because of cattle tracks. Our first trip was a failure. “Then, on August 18 that was after Mrs. McPherson had returned to that region to help offices hunt the cabin where she had been held prisoner we found the shack that the evangelist and the other officers failed to find. Lieutenant Gatlitf was the first to spy the place.

The shack was really a miner’s cabin at the abandoned San Juan gold and copper mine. “In this shack we found the can which has been opened with canopener, and we could see that the rough edge had been used to cut the bed ticking strips which apparently had bound the woman’s wrists and ankles. Incidentally, I saw the marks made on Mrs, McPherson’s wrists by these strips, although the Los Angeles papers denied there were any marks. There was no furniture of any kind In the house when we visited It. “In conclusion I might add that California certainly has some prize winning liars.” The San Bernardino Sun correspondent goes on to say that Constable Ash, together with his uncle, the Rev. Mr. Gardiner, spent half an hour in the Redlands office of the San Bernardino Sun, describing the evangelist’s case as he saw it.

He admitted that ho knew little concerning the pastor and her work but he is confident she Is the victim of much misrepresentation. The Douglas constable is a man of middle age, appears sincere and truthful, and he proudly displays the emblem of the Masonic lodge. Madera Tribune, Number 64, January 18, 1927 Charge Aimee Facts Withheld p. 4

Name of hotel in Douglas, Arizona

"The couple had registered frequently under the name of Mr. and Mrs. J. Stone at the Gladstone Hotel, in Douglas." I'm writing a novel in which the kidnapping of Aimee Semple McPherson plays out in the background. In doing research, I could not find another reference to a "Gladstone Hotel" in Douglas, though I did find a "Gadsden Hotel." I contacted Cindy Hayostek, historian for Douglas Historical Society, and asked her if maybe this Wikipedia article reference was confusing the two. She said there's never been a "Gladstone Hotel" in Douglas so it must be The Gadsden Hotel, which opened in 1907 and has been in continuous operation ever since. 131.191.82.83 (talk) 03:14, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Its spelled "Gladstone Hotel" in the Berkeley Daily Gazette - Oct 8, 1926 Look on page 1 "Rose and "Steve" Evidence Found https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=PPAp3RzCAaIC&dat=19261008&printsec=frontpage&hl=en SteamWiki (talk) 01:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)