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Talk:Disappearance of Federico Tobares/GA1

< Talk:Disappearance of Federico Tobares
Latest comment: 5 years ago by Chidgk1 in topic GA Review

GA Review

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Latest comment: 5 years ago25 comments4 people in discussion
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Reviewer: Chidgk1 (talk · contribs) 09:45, 26 July 2019 (UTC)Reply


Hello,

This is obviously an important subject and the English is pretty clear. I'll start with some first impressions from someone who has no knowledge of the subject.

  • @Chidgk1: Thank you for the thorough review. I will respond to your points below. FYI, I am out of town this weekend but I think I'll be able to respond within reasonable time. Regards, MX (✉ • ✎) 16:11, 26 July 2019 (UTC)Reply

@MX: No rush at all - I will be travelling myself so don't be concerned if I take a while to respond. Also that was not my complete review. I hope to look into this more deeply but I am a little concerned that I may not be able to check whether the newspapers cited are reliable sources - some country projects have a list of reliable sources but I have not been able to find one under Wikipedia:WikiProject Mexico or Wikipedia:WikiProject Argentina. If you don't know of such a list I guess one of us can ask at Spanish Wikipedia.

  • @MrClog: @MX: Sorry my homework is late - it was badly chewed by the dog. Er actually a more plausible excuse is

that I have only just bought a travel router in which I can put my VPN details to evade our sometimes annoying government. Hmm actually I should try it now we are home before we travel again. Ah OK that works - I will have to think of another excuse next time. So while we are waiting for the map wizards I think I should have a look through the sources with the help of Google Translate. Feel free to chase me if I don't get back to you in the next few days.Chidgk1 (talk) 11:31, 3 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

Map(s)

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As someone with no knowledge of the country I think it would be helpful to have much more detailed map(s) showing:

  • where he was when he talked to the friend
  • RESPONSE: He drove from Puerto Vallarta to Guadalajara, where he actually met with two people. He then phone-called his friend to explain what was going on (this was around noon), and that was it. So he disappeared in or near Guadalajara. Would a map of the city suffice?
  • if different where and when the phone was when it last contacted a base station
  • RESPONSE: No mention of this other than Guadalajara being the last place he was in.
  • where he met Rogelio
  • RESPONSE: Sources just mention Guadalajara, unfortunately.
  • the tobacco shop
  • RESPONSE: Sources just mentioned the tobacco shop was in Guadalajara, but I'm not sure where.
  • where the car was found
  • RESPONSE: The article mentioned it was found parked in a centrally-located neighborhood in La Piedad, Michoacán.
  • the island
  • RESPONSE: No mention of the location. They just mentioned he visited private islands owned by the CJNG.

If you have no graphics skills maybe you could do a sketch and request one from the graphics lab. I am thinking maybe with inset and/or popout like this. So there would be a very small outline of the whole of Mexico, zooming into the states and then if necessary the key city. Maybe you could link to or mail me a rough sketch before asking the graphics workshop?

  • Yes I agree that svg is the right format and another advantage of svg is that the text language can be switchable so if someone writes a Spanish article in future they could use the same map with an "es" switch instead of "en". My feeling is that in order for the reader (especially those not familiar with the country) to easily follow the sequence and location of the events that there needs to be dates and events on the map like this. What do you think?Chidgthe k1 (talk) 16:20, 8 August 2019 (UTC)Reply
  • @Chidgk1: Yes, that is a perfect idea. In that case let's do Puerto Vallarta (3:00 a.m. on 5 June), Guadalajara (12:32 p.m. on 5 June) and La Piedad (19 June). Can you help me make a map like that? Thanks, MX (✉ • ✎) 20:14, 11 August 2019 (UTC)Reply
  • @MX: No sorry I am not skilled in maps - it would be up to you to organise it with the graphics lab maps experts. However I'll be happy to read the request you make to them to see whether the requested map would seem useful to me representing a new reader of the article. Chidgk1 (talk) 10:19, 12 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

Pictures

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Is it just because I am sitting outside wearing photochromatic glasses or do others find his picture rather dark? If so perhaps you could ask the graphics lab if they could improve it or replace it with a clearer picture from his social media.

  • RESPONSE: Where can I contact the graphics lab? Never done this before, but his picture does look a bit dark. That was the best one I found find of Federico looking straight at the camera.

Why does the photo need to be of him looking straight at the camera - is that what is advised for missing people? I have not used the photography workshop or map workshop at Wikipedia:Graphics Lab but their illustration workshop drew me a lovely schematic recently. There was about a month's wait in the queue so it may be best to put any photo or map request in first and then look at other points in this review whilst you are waiting.

  • Image was made clearer. Please check it and let me know (make sure to clear your cache
Perfect. Thanks. Chidgk1 (talk) 16:01, 8 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

Electronic evidence

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I don't have expertise in this area so if the following questions obviously don't make sense please say so without worrying about offending me. There are a few mentions of his cellphone but it might be useful to say more. Is it legally possible for the investigating authorities to make all his cellphone data publicly available? Were traffic cameras rare in Mexican cities in 2013?

  • RESPONSE: I have no idea. Traffic cameras were largely adopted in Mexico City around 2008, and a few states followed over the years. Jalisco had close to 600 when Federico disappeared, but there were no mention of traffic cameras in the sources (just the camera at the tobacco shop).

Preservation of cold case evidence

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I have read of some countries keeping evidence in case it might be needed. Is this true here and if so was anything else kept apart from the car?

  • RESPONSE: Other than the car, there's nothing else mentioned that moves the case forward. No wonder the family is frustrated. Gerardo's arrest and his criminal investigation is a separate case in itself.

Clarifications

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"His family believes Gerardo did this to keep Tobares entertained ....." Can you rewrite as I don't understand. What do you mean "entertained"? Do you mean that nothing illegal was happening at the sushi bar so they preferred him there?

"......guiding him along the way......" Do we know how he was being guided?

  • RESPONSE: Since he was on the phone with his friend, I'm assuming he was following another vehicle. The source says: "En un momento cuenta que va por lugares raros, una zona medio fea, que tenía miedo y estaba medio perdido, que lo guiaban pero era todo medio raro. / At one point he tells her that he goes through strange places, an ugly area, that he was afraid and was half lost, and that he was being guided but it was very strange."

I am confused about his wife as I don't read Spanish and just used Google translate on one of the cites - this says she worked at a hotel so was the hotel she worked at unconnected with Hotelito Desconocido?

  • RESPONSE: You mean Gerardo's wife Wendy? She worked at Hotelito Desconocido. Let me know what sentence is confusing and I can rephrase it.

How do we know he met Rogelio? Was it at his bosses request? Were there any connections between the Colombian (or Rogelio) and Gerardo?

  • RESPONSE: The information was from an inteview with Federico's sister Ana. She gave details of what happened after Federico's phone call with his friend. I'm assuming she got this from the police, who interrogated people who may have known him (Rogelio was Argentine and was likely a friend of his, but there's no mention of their previous relationship in the sources).

Can you explain more about the vehicle - was the Colombian who owned it connected to the other Colombian and where exactly did he pick it up?

  • RESPONSE: OK, this is where it gets kind of tricky. I've read all the public sources about the case, and I think that the two Colombians mentioned in the article/sources (the one he met at the tobacco shop and the one who was cited as the owner of the vehicle that was later found) are actually two different people. The Colombian he met at the tabacco shop is likely just a friend, since they were going to discuss plans for his daughter's birthday. The other "Colombian" was the owner of the vehicle, but he is cited as the owner of the restaurant too (so this person HAS to be Gerardo since Gerardo was the official owner). When the source was published, Gerardo's identify was unknown outside of law enforcement circles (his name became public after the release of the Panama Papers in 2015). Apparently it was Federico's friends who said this person was "Colombian", but let's keep in mind that when the source was publish we didn't know anything about Gerardo or his nationality. How would you suggest fixing this? I'm thinking about adding a footnote saying that the owner was likely Gerardo, who may have been confused as a Colombian. But I don't actually have a source for that even though I "know" that was likely the case.

Did the police find his girlfriend and if so what did she tell them?

  • RESPONSE: There's no mention of the police getting in contact with the girlfriend, but Federico's family was the one that explained to the press that Federico was talking to her before they lost communication. I'm assuming she either spoke to the police or to the family, who then relayed the info to investigators.

Minor and off-topic points

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  • Add article description
  • RESPONSE: Done!
  • Are you going to write a Spanish article? As most of the sources are in Spanish it will be easier for them to be checked there.
  • RESPONSE: Probably not. I'm hardly involved in Spanish Wikipedia since I find it difficult to keep up with two projects at the same time. I like writing in English because it can be easily translated to more languages.
  • Not sure if there are a few minor English mistakes or whether they are correct in American English. Maybe I should change them and you undo the changes if you are sure they were already right in US English?
  • RESPONSE: Please feel free to change whatever you see fit.
  • Ref 8 seems to be a dead link
  • RESPONSE: I've replaced the link (it was duplicate for another one already archived).
  • Remove redlinks
  • RESPONSE: I did the redlinks per WP:REDLINK. Los Cuinis could have a page, as well as the embassy and the statue (which has a Spanish article).
  • The external link to Facebook seems to be to his personal page rather than "Encontremos A Federico Tobares". Is there a link to it somewhere?
  • RESPONSE: I've added the link to the page you mentioned, too! Good catch.

Are the sources reliable?

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I have asked [[1]]

Possible shortening of the lead to one paragraph

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I am wondering about reducing the lead to a single paragraph to try to make the beginning a little easier for readers new to the subject. How about something like:

"Federico Tobares, an Argentine chef working in Mexico, disappeared in 2013 in a suspected organized crime kidnapping. Tobares was last seen around midday on 5 June 2013 in Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico, after driving from Puerto Vallarta in the same state. He was last heard from half an hour later when he phoned a friend. She told investigators that Tobares had told her that he was delivering a car for his boss and was being guided, but was scared and did not know where he was. The car was found 2 weeks later in nearby Michoacán. Gerardo González Valencia, the owner of the restaurants where Tobares had been working, was later imprisoned for money laundering, and is accused of drug trafficking as a leader of the Jalisco New Generation Cartel. No trace of Tobares has ever been found."

Then what is now in the lead paragraphs could be merged into the "dissapearance" section. Do you think that would be an improvement or would it be better left as is? Chidgk1 (talk) 07:44, 7 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

  • @Chidgk1: Hi, thank you for the feedback. Yes, the article's lead could be reduced per MOS:LEADLENGTH. Given the the size of the article, one paragraph is actually good enough. I kept your suggestion and did not include the other details elsewhere, since the information in the lead is already cited and mentioned elsewhere in the body paragraphs, per WP:LEADCITE. Please let me know if you need anything else from me. MX (✉ • ✎) 18:33, 10 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

Citations

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With the help of Google Translate I am looking through the citations. So far I noticed for cite number

3 - Is this supposed to be the cite for "Tobares was passionate about cooking"? If so did I miss where it says that? If so maybe it should be directly after "cooking" or if not another cite could be there.

  •   Done Source #7 mentions that his family and friends genuinely thought Federico was happy working as a chef in Mexico. It also mentions he was passionate about other stuff, and I think that's where I got confused and added them as one. I've removed this part. MX (✉ • ✎) 16:21, 16 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

5 - A couple of very minor points. I have to cut out the original url otherwise I cannot get Google to translate it. Can that be improved? Google does not translate it very well. Might "con la formoseña Carolina Evans" just mean that she is from Formosa? Obviously it is likely they met there but does it actually say so?

  •   Done Yes, "formoseñ@" is someone from Formosa. Source says Federico lived there but no mention if they met there. I've fixed the source per your request. I believe it was dead at some point so I made the archived version the main one. MX (✉ • ✎) 16:21, 16 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

8 - If this is just to say he liked Mexican food it is not important but is it also for: "In 2009, he decided to leave Argentina and move to Mexico after he found a job as a chef in the resort city of Puerto Vallarta, Jalisco"? A video is maybe a little tricky to translate: could that sentence have a cite which is easier for people who do not speak Spanish.

  • I didn't find a written source that says that. But I hope my translation of the video helps. (Minute 54 to 1:14): Federico llegó al país en 2009 luego de que se le presentara una oportunidad laborar que coincidia con uno de sus principales intereses, la comida mexicana. De acuerdo a sus familiares, al joven le gustó tanto México que decidió radicarse en Puerto Vallarta. Y según mostraba en su perfil de Facebook, la gastronomía nacional se conviertió en una de sus principales aficiones. / [English]: Federico arrived in [Mexico] in 2009 after he was presented with a work opportunity that coincided with one of his main interests, Mexican cuisine. According to his relatives, the young man liked Mexico so much that he decided to settle in Puerto Vallarta. And as he showed in his Facebook profile, [cooking Mexican] cuisine became one of his main hobbies. MX (✉ • ✎) 16:21, 16 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

9 - Google Translate says "he promised that he would become a member" but presumably that is a mistranslation for "business partner"?

  • Source reads: El mexicano le dijo que él no sabía nada de gastronomía, que se ocupara él, le prometió que lo iba a hacer socio. Pero eso era sólo para tenerlo quieto y que no hablara. The word "socio" is often translated to partner, in this context business partner. MX (✉ • ✎) 16:21, 16 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

Note c mentions "another source" but the original source for " In Jalisco, he worked as the main chef of Hotelito Desconocido, a luxurious boutique hotel in Tomatlán. He also worked at Nudoki Sushi Bar, an Asian restaurant in Puerto Vallarta" seems to have gone missing or maybe I missed something.

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I removed one but do you think anyone is likely to write an article on "Los Cuinis"?

  • @Chidgk1: Mexico is under-represented on Wikipedia, so I don't know if anyone will ever create an article about it. But it could potentially be created given the sources available. The U.S. government usually categorizes Los Cuinis as a separate entity to the CJNG (and not necessarily as its subsidiary or branch). Los Cuinis' article could have more details on the González Valencia clan and dealings specifically to Los Cuinis. But I'm fine without the redlink. If I ever create an article for this I'll link it here too, not a big deal. MX (✉ • ✎) 16:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

Not sure if it is possible or against some mandatory Wikipedia style rule but the link to the Guadalajara monument article would be more readable if it was "LINKNAMEENGLISH(in Spanish)" like the link to the policy document in German here

2nd opinion requested

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I would like the opinion of other reviewers on 2 questions:

1) Is it reasonable to insist on a decent map before rating this article GA? 2) Is it reasonable to insist on a GA article in Spanish before rating this article GA?

If the answer to 1) is no then how can the events of the disappearance be better explained to someone with no knowledge of the geography of Mexico?

If the answer to 2) is no then how can the sources be assessed as reliable or not? Should I just rely on the nominator rating them reliable?

Also if the answer to 2) is no then how can I be sure that all available relevent info has been included. For example there is a lack of info on where the phone was last tracked, whether the car was retained etc. Maybe that lack of info from the investigators is normal in Mexico but I have no idea.

  • Concern 1: response: Response pending
  • Concern 2: response: @Chidgk1: Who would be writing the Spanish Wikipedia article? Myself? I would be using the same sources / info I've used to make this one. Plenty of GAs are made about foreign (non-English language) topics without their native language Wikipedia articles. I've never heard about this being a requirement, even for FAs. I'm fine walking you through the sources if you think there's one that is problematic. I'm a Mexican national and have done extensive research on the case since I'm able to read Spanish. I keep an eye on the family's Facebook page since they usually post updates or mentions of Federico, but there have been no developments so far. I haven't found any more sources about these gaps you mentioned (the phone geolocation, the car's retention, and more about the investigation). Keep in mind there are +150,000 killed in Mexico since 2006 (the start of the Mexican Drug War), and roughly +50,000 disappeared. That's too much for any government to handle and properly investigate. Add the corruption and high impunity rates, and you have yourself a perfect recipe for a failed case. No wonder why the family is desperate for answers. MX (✉ • ✎) 16:28, 8 October 2019 (UTC)Reply
@MX:: As an editor using foreign language sources myself (luckily they are mostly government websites in my case so can generally be presumed factually correct from the url ending - although perhaps missing anti-government info) I understand and sympathize with your points, but to make it less time-consuming for me and other non-Spanish speakers to check the reliability of Spanish sources would you or someone else knowledgeable have time to create a Spanish equivalent of Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources?

Why failed and suggestions for resubmitting

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@MX: Not your fault but I have decided to fail this under criterion 6 - Illustration, due to the lack of a decent map. My reason is that when someone who does not know Mexico reads it for the first time it is confusing re what happened where. However as you have improved it quite a lot since I originally read it I would encourage you to resubmit it for someone else to consider. When they read it for the first time their opinion might differ from mine. Also I suggest you ask the Guild of Copy Editors to give it a copy edit. If you are unable to get a good map made you could tell them that and ask them whether they are able to improve the text enough that it would not need one.Chidgk1 (talk) 07:51, 17 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

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