Talk:Divine Comedy/Archives/2006

Picture overlaps text

I think that says it all. The text is overlapped by one of the illustrations. I've not worked with pictures before, so somebody with more experiance who has a second should take a look. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Xeinart (talk • contribs) 01:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

Gary Panter's Jimbo in Purgatory

Why was this deleted from the Influence on Visual Arts section?

I know some may find its inclusion dubious, as it may be perceived by those unfamiliar with alternative comics/ the work of Gary Panter’s as a piece of exoterica but nonetheless this publication stands as a lavish Object D'Art as well as a highly conceptualized academic work and is indeed noteworthy and an article on the book itself would encourage much intellectual discourse… it is, in my opinion, very exciting and clever work, one of prime examples of what avant-garde comics are. Panter’s notes to the book provides fresh insight to Dante as an artist, noting that much like Joyce after him, Dante is a ‘synthesist’ creating a “massive superimposition of underlying structure” with his writing (which is what Panter himself attempts with the graphic medium in ‘Jimbo in Purgatory’ with its use of multilayered visual/literary formats )

I was going to get to writing a wiki of the book, but the stub I started was deleted...

[1] [2]

--Counterrestrial 14:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler warning...?

I believe the whole divina commedia has been summarized here, even with the lack of details, and this as in all cases demands a Spoiler warning.... with such, those who'd want to know about the story even if they have read it or not (like me, who doesn't remember every aspect of it...) would like to know about the punishments and ambiences of each of the circles of the inferno and purgatorio, and would appreciate very much this extra info, so thanks :). Kreachure 17:04, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Is this a joke? What exactly is being given away? The narrative is secondary to the philosophy, so effectively we're saying 'If you do not want to know that Dante used images of light and the divine rose to portray paradise, please look away now'. Filiocht 09:34, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)

Well, the problem is with the idea that anything "in all cases demands" anything, don't you think? But, a Spoiler Warning for the Divine Comedy ("gawrsh, Mickey, how d'ya suppose it all comes out?") is a recipe for bathos. Like a Spoiler Warning for Revelation or Macbeth. --Wetman 03:40, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Or for "Titanic" (She sinks...) Trekphiler 01:05, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

The Divina Commedia is an epic poem, meaning it's a lengthy story, where many, MANY things happen that people shouldn't necessarily know about; if I hadn't read it I wouldn't know exactly what happens, and those things are exactly what I would like not spoiled for me. Not everyone is as lectured as some around here claim to be, and people come here to learn, not to be bashed by people who think they know what everyone who come here should magically know. The poetic, social, religious, and philosophical commentaries are spread all over with fascinating passion, but that doesn't stop it from being a story with interesting characters and situations you'd like to know about for yourself, too. Knowing 'how it ends' doesn't mean you know about everything that led to that.

Do you think John of Patmos should've written, "Yeah, lots of things happen, but all you really need to know is that the it'll be the end of the world."? Please, try to open your minds to actually reading amazing literature like the Revelation and the Commedia, instead of trying to simplify great works of art to what 'popular culture' tells you!

Fun fact: Contrary to pop culture mentality, not everyone in the world is christian/catholic to automatically know what the Revelation even is, or English-speaking to know how Macbeth ends. So please try to be more open to the Human (i.e. not only American) Culture Wikipedia is aimed at. Wikipedia exists to bring knowledge to everyone, so saying that works of art like these aren't worth reading (or in other words they aren't 'spoilable') 'because we know the ending' is totally contrary to giving knowledge.

P.S. Two years after I talked about it, and who knows for how long since then, there is indeed a spoiler warning. So I guess I can be at peace knowing people do want others to read it and discover its wholesome greatness by themselves. Kreachure 00:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Original copies??

What is exactly meant by original copies? As far as I know there's no original Dante manuscript, not only for the Commedia but also for letters or whatever else. If by original copy is meant Dante's handwriting, then I believe the information is not accurate (to say the least). The manuscript here in Milan at the Biblioteca Trivulziana is dated 1337. Does anybody have more details? If we could have Dante's manuscript .... think of the time spent in endless discussions about a word, an article a rhyme ... --Marco Bonavoglia 12:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

"Original copies" as identified in the article is simply a falsehood. You are right that there is no autograph, so the only meaningful (but misleading sense) would be "earliest copies." However, it is an obvious absurdity to say that "only two earliest copies exist." I'm deleting the nonsense, which I hope won't be reposted without discussion & credible citation. Wareh 13:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Derivative Works

I have to say the list of 'derivative' music is a riot. Absolutely priceless stuff. Various 'tributes' by metal bands get a mention, but the list doesn't even include Franz Liszt's Dante Sonata, which is artistically far above anything mentioned, as is Pyotr Tchaikovsky's Divine Comedy related tone poem to name another. Maybe it is for the better though, it just doesn't seem right to insert such pieces in a list that among other things includes a Milla Jovovich album and a reference to some obscure "Christian metalcore band with hardcore punk influences." The musical sophistication shown by that list is nil. 05:53, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

It would have taken fewer keystrokes to add it yourself than sit on-high and deprecate Wikipedia on the talk page. But then, that seems your real intent. Stbalbach 16:09, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I guess my 'intent' was to deprecate the lack of musical sophistication, however, the point I made is relevant and valid whether you like it or not. Anyone with the slightest degree of musical and cultural sophistication is likely to agree with me. The current list is silly, but I am sure many people would take offence if someone went in and removed all the dross. Therefore I have no intention or desire to start making changes. This is what can happen with an open encyclopedia like Wikipedia. There is no quality control in certain areas because maintaining it is very difficult if not impossible. It is just as impossible to prevent someone from putting out a record called "Divine Comedy (Tribute to Dante)" that consists of farts and burps and two planks of wood loudly slamming together with someone reciting an awfully rhymed gory verse over it in a nasal voice. I'm sure that recording could make its way to the list of derivative works if someone made it and added it. Of course that is an extreme example, but nonetheless you need someone with sophistication and discernment to put a stop to all the madness and bring order into chaos by qualitative decisions. Unfortunately in this case any qualitative judgment would probably be viewed as elitist, snobbish and highbrow by the majority. Sad but true. 21:31, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

The list has only been around 6 months or so and is waiting for an educated editor to add the highbrow pieces. I estimate there are probably thousands if not tens of thousands of cultural works that derive from Divine Comedy. Who is to say which should be included and which should not? Thats the nature of Wikipedia. The list was created because any editor has a right to add to the list. Whats important to some is not to others. Eventually when the list is long enough it will spawn off a new article. Where else will you find a list like this? In 5 or 10 years it may be entirely unique. I think your vision is very narrow, lists like you suggest allready exist. And not to worry, whatever your holding back will get added by someone else in the future. Stbalbach 22:06, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

For my money the list could use some serious paring. Maybe we could agree that there needs to be more than just a passing reference to the DC. There should be some substantial derivation of content from the DC. Good candidates for lopping (IMO) would be the Boondocks Saints movie (one quoted line), Goddard's film trilogy (names of the three parts), Angel TV series (references in a single episode), the movie Clerks, the Betty Ford book, Karl Marx (paraphrase of a single line), American Psycho (another instance of a single quoted line), the Irish band, the Milla Jovovich CD (title), Skinny Puppy (an Inferno illustration as a cover for a CD single?), Nirvana (again, CD cover art), Asaki (apparently only a CD title), and Weezer (incredibly hitting the trifecta, with a single quoted line in hidden text(!) on an album cover). If this level of reference qualified, the list could probably be extended to tens of thousands of items without being comprehensive.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.183.7.157 (talk • contribs) .

People just add them back.. you could remove half the entries, and come back a year later, and there will be twice as many. The "problem" of derivative works is not unique to the DC article. On the other hand the list makes no claim to being comprehensive, and the standard for inclusion is subjective. Probably the best thing is, once it gets long enough (its getting there), move it to its own article to isolate it from the main article. --Stbalbach 03:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I've been mentally toying with the idea of a completely separate wiki for this type of stuff. I find it interesting, but it doesn't belong here. If we had another wikimedia site with this stuff, we could have a template like the one for the dictionary and dump it all out there. John (Jwy) 04:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a great idea. Even better, make it a Wikipedia sister project porposal. Use this article as a poster child. Let me know if you need any help. -- Stbalbach 04:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Notes

To this English speaker, it would be nice if the article summarized existing public domain and copyrighted English translations. For instance, is it worth paying for John Ciardi's translation, or is there a pre-1922 gem that captures the depths and heights? (Information on translations would be useful for all works, from Genesis to Homer on up to today.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.252.222.224 (talk) 08:14, 13 December 2005 -213.219.186.213 16:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The following translations are all rhymeless prose unless otherwise indicated.

• Henry Francis Cary's translation : according to wikipedia's article, appeared in 1814 and went through four editions and was well respected for accuracy.
  • gutenberg Complete includes Cary's extensive notes

• Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
  • gutenberg Complete includes six of Wadsworth's sonnets and Dennis McCarthy's postscript
  • Dante Project shows side by side versions of Longfellow and Mandelbaum translations, including notes not present in the gutenberg version.

• Charles Eliot Norton's translation proofread by James Russell Lowell
  • gutenberg Hell is verseless prose but includes Charles' opinions of contemporary translations: he considered Dr. John Carlyle's excellent, also that of Mr. W. S. Dugdale, Mr. A. J. Butler's of great merit but occassionally "crabbed", Mr. Longfellow's notes and illustrations an admirable commentary.

Some opinions on commercial versions:

• Back to hell - Nicholas Lezard salutes the first part of Robin Kirkpatrick's edition of Dante's Divine Comedy, Inferno.

• shop.allcomedyradio.com mixed reviews on Allen Mandelbaum - book includes the Italian text. One reviewer recommends instead Mark Musa or Charlie Singleton's translations.

-213.219.186.213 16:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd disregard that Lezard review. He writes,

I would not have expected "ahi" as in "Ahi quant'elli era ne l'aspetto fero!" (canto XXI, line 31) to be rendered as "Eek!" Still, Kirkpatrick has written at least three books on Dante already and has probably forgotten more about the poet than I will ever know, so I trust to his judgment.

Err, I thought critics were supposed to be competent to exercise judgment. Lezard is also confused in believing that Mandelbaum is not available in bilingual editions. IMHO it's hard to beat Mandelbaum, but some of the other recent vesions (e.g. by the Hollanders and the Durling-Martinez collaboration) are also excellent. Anyway, Mandelbaum may not be public domain, but it is available for online consultation. Wareh 17:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

First SF writer?

The Divine Comedy is sometimes called the first SF novel. (So is Kepler's posthumous 1634 book Somnum....) Also, check the translation: it's commonly "Abandon all hope"; I believe correctly it's "Abandon hope, all ye"... Trekphiler 01:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

There was no Science Fiction literary genre in the 14th century. It was not a novel but a "comedy". Translations of the "Abandon.." are found in the footnotes, no "correct" translation, only favorite ones. --Stbalbach 04:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

"Abandon all hope" is the correct translation of Lasciate ogne speranza. Qwertyus 17:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Outline

Would an outline of Dante's Inferno be helpful? i.e. the circles with punishment, the sin commited, and major people in that circle

• Be Bold! - John (Jwy) 22:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

light

Regarding this paragraph:

Paragraph 39 of Deus Caritas Est, the first encyclical written by Pope Benedict XVI, appears to be inspired by the last canto of "Paradise". The encyclical says "Love is the light—and in the end, the only light—that can always illuminate a world grown dim...", reflecting the text of the canto which ends, "the everlasting Light that is God himself, before that Light which at the same time is the love which moves the sun and the other stars".

This sounds like original research. The metaphor of light, and seeing the world as old and growing dimmer, was a common Christian view throughout the middle ages. In fact it was Petrarch who co-opted this Christian vision of the world and turned it on its head to create what was termed the "dark ages". Unless there is factual evidence for the above quote being influenced by Dante its a very loose association. --Stbalbach 15:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

It does look like original research but I have added a reference which says "Benedict XVI says his first encyclical, "Deus Caritas Est," is inspired in part by Dante Alighieri's "Divine Comedy." ". Actually, re-reading the reference again, the statement could be a lot more positive - Benedict himself says that he was inspired by Dante. -- ALoan (Talk) 16:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Great thanks for the Reference, interesting to read in more detail. --Stbalbach 23:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Unjustified interpretation of sins

The seventh circle, middle ring includes a bit of exposition on why the prolifigate belong here, finishing with:

Hence, doing violence to one's property is kin to suicide.

It sounds reasonable, but if the article is going to assert that "In Dante's time, it was believed...", there should be some citation for that. In fact, those words seem weasly, and it would be better to write "Influential priests/philosophers of Dante's time taught..." and state what they taught and also state exactly who it was that taught this. AdamRetchless 01:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Does Nero appear in the Inferno, or elsewhere?

I'm trying to expand Nero#Nero in medieval literature, and I have a feeling he must be in the Inferno somewhere, but can't find the reference. neddyseagoonNeddyseagoon 16:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

There's no mention of Nero in the Divine Comedy, although he does rate a passing reference in Dante's Convivio.

Popes

My high school classics teacher always seemed to enjoy commenting on how many popes Dante put in Hell.--Saxophobia 23:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Mark Musa Translation.

I have a copy of Mark Musa's translation of "The Divine Comedy Volume 1: Inferno" (ISBN 0-14-243722-0) and it does not say 'Abandon every hope, all ye who enter here.' It says 'all you who enter here. I changed it to follow this, this is my first alteration to wikipedia I hope it's ok. If there are different versions of the translation then please could someone add this fact.

Thanks. Do you know the date of the translation? That would be helpful too. -- Stbalbach 12:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The Book I have was published in 2003 but the original edition was published in 1971, I assume that was when it was first translated but I can't be sure. I'll have a dig around. Blitzace123 23:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Abandon all hope footnote

I noticed someone deleted the footnote. The primary reason for the footnote is to prevent article churn. Before we had the footnote, the quote in the article changed on a weekly basis (if not more often), as each editor changed it to reflect the translation they happened to be reading. This was mostly a problem with anon editors. So by adding the footnote, it stopped the churn problem. It's one of those "Wikipedia literacy" things, Wikipedia is unique from printed material and needs to be approached in a different way to handle group collaboration. The second reason is, it's just interesting. This is the most famous line from the work and it's interesting to see how many different ways it has been translated, it doesn't hurt to have it. I agree that in a traditional printed article, written by a single editor, the footnote would be silly. -- Stbalbach 13:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I was the one who deleted it. Your first reason ("churn") is new to me; I don't agree with it (what possible harm is in occasional changes from "ye" to "you"?), but I certainly won't presume to re-delete the note. Your second reason ("it's interesting"), though, I can't accept as easily. Very many passages from the Commedia would provide fascinating opportunities for translation comparisons (even if this article is already under some strain from its length), but surely you'd agree that this particular line affords about the least interesting scope for comparison imaginable (since the translations are 95% the same)? Wareh 17:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well the harm is it wastes a lot of peoples time and energy who keep changing it, and it wastes peoples time who keep checking for watchlist changes - rather than have it change all the time with no reason, just document all the permutations one-time and be done with it. It's interesting because the line transcends the book - people who have never even heard of the book have heard of the phrase because its used everywhere, from Bugs Bunny cartoons to Dungeons and Dragons, it is a part of popular culture mythology. Obviously from a literary criticism viewpoint, your right, it is not interesting. -- Stbalbach 01:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Just so you don't think I was being brazen, I do admit I should've read this talk page through first. Thought I was tidying uncontroversially. I just could never have believed that this little issue would loom so large for anyone! Wareh 17:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

"Lay down all hope, you that go in by me," was the rather idiosyncratic translation of that line offered by Dorothy Sayers, whose translation was quite notable for a variety of reasons. But, hey, I'm easy to get along with so I won't insist it be included here. --Christofurio 16:37, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Newly Added "Manuscript" Image

I don't like the newly added image, Page_of_The_Divine_Comedy.jpg. Does anyone know anything about its date, place, or origin? An attractive MS page is a good idea, but it should be something as historically appropriate as possible (either one of the oldest MSS, or else something whose significance in the reception of Dante can be stated in the caption). As long as this image so entirely lacks a context (for all I know, it was made in 1965 in California), I think we're better off with nothing. Wareh 18:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Any manuscript is significiant in that it illustrates the wide-spread acceptance of Dante in the days before the printing press. It also illustrates the wide range of time over which Dante has been a major writer, in combination with the other illustrations. Goldfritha 22:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

These aspects would be better served if we had any idea of the date of this MS. As it is, we don't know about the range it indicates, or even whether it's from before or after the printing press. Wareh 00:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Images

I found a gold mine of images in one of the Article's links. Does anyone think we should include all of these Dore images next to the text? I do. Opinions? I mean - just take a look at these fantastic images. http://www.doreillustrations.com/divinecomedy/HELL/images/divinecomedy-hell.html DocEss 17:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

We've got some of them. We've got more in the link to commons. And, in fact, I think this article has if anything too many Dore images. It gives a false impression of his influence to have it so narrowly illustrated. (Which is why I've added other artists' -- it was worse before.) Goldfritha 23:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed too many Dore images - they should be uploaded and linked at Wikicommons (if not already). -- Stbalbach 13:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah I see. Well that's sensible I suppose. But I would like to see an image for each circle; that might help illustrate dante's voyage.DocEss 20:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad Edit-War

Okay, maybe the term "edit war" is jumping the gun. But I observe this page, and now I've seen it go back and forth multiple times on whether the presentation of Muhammad in the Commedia belongs in the "Divine Comedy and Islamic Philosophy" section of the article. Let's try to generate some consensus and record here. I think it ought to be easy to adopt a solution that satisfies everyone, and I think this solution probably has three elments:

• Recognize that the "Divine Comedy and Islamic Philosophy" section is about the scholarly inquiry into whether Dante's many sources included originally Arabic-language texts known to him in Latin or vernacular versions. Once we agree on this, we have a clear criterion for relevance.
• Recognize that a mere, unadorned description of Muhammad's appearance in Inferno is perfectly appropriate to the article's Inferno summary, but irrelevant to this other section per se. I hope that this recognition will defuse any feelings that may exist out there that an interesting scene in Inferno is being suppressed from the article in any way!
• Consider the conditions under which the Muhammad scene could be made relevant to the "Islamic Philosophy" section. This is really quite simple if anyone wants to do it. All you have to do is go to one of the numerous scholarly treatments of Dante's possible Arabic sources, find where the scholar weighs the Muhammad scene for any interesting perspective on Dante's readerly encounter with learned Arabic civilization, and voilà, you have a reliable source for a statement of a possible (non-original research) way in which the two topics can be interestingly connected.

In a nutshell, I think the final paragraph (and accompanying image) should be deleted from this section, but I also think that anyone who regrets this in the slightest can have their cake and eat it too: introduce your passage, in a way that is relevant to and will improve the section. Wareh 17:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course, I agree with you %100. See below "Sower of discord" (no pun intended). -- Stbalbach 14:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Ptolomea

I have read, specifically in the notes on The Divine Comedy by Ronald L. Martinez and Robert M. Durling, based on the latter's translation, that Ptolomea was more likely named after Ptolemy of Egypt who permitted the killing of Pompey in his house, with Ptolemy from the book of Maccabeas as a second possible option. The book is from 1996, so I don't know if it's a situation of changing scholarly consensus, but I thought I'd at least add the possibility of Ptolemy of Egypt, unless someone objects (perhaps a decision had already been come to here?) Matveiko 20:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Links warning

Why did the warning get added to the Links section? Explain, please.DocEss 17:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The user's page says, "I add {{External links}} warnings when there are more than 5 non official links as well." So it's on principle. Obviously, a subject of this importance, on which there is such high-quality online content available that could never go into Wikipedia, needs more than five links. However, let's WP:Assume good faith and take this as an invitation to streamline. For example, we can keep the Italian Dante Society in the "see also" list, and merge the links to that; we can prune dead links and low-quality links; etc. But I am certainly firm that there is a need for numerous links—in fact I'm sure we are missing links to some of the most important and useful content (I had to add Dartmouth Dante Project just in the last month!). Wareh 17:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Gluttony?

Dropped:

Dante shares in the sin by being a "glutton for information," by attempting to extract information about the future from Ciacco for political gain.

This is an idiosyncratic interpretation, to say the least. This line of thinking doesn't match with Dante's scheme for the vision of hell. At the time that he had the Inferno in finished form, Dante was certainly aware that his hope of political usefulness was long gone. Although it could be argued that at other points he does "share the sin" of the souls (i.e. with Filippo Argenti in Circle V, and Fra Alberigo in Circle IX), it's a stretch to say his desire for knowledge is "gluttony". Ellsworth 16:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)