Talk:Dixie/Archives/2013

Dixie Song, Racist

Who considers Dixie Racist?? -Anthony Smith 3.11.07

Many American congressmen, students, and musicologists, to name a few. — Brian (talk) 00:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Since it's a blackface-minstrel song written in slave English exaggerated for comedic value about the longing of a freed slave to return to the South and the nice life he had as a slave, it doesn't require a stretch of imagination to see the racism.88.12.192.229 (talk)

nothing in the song says it's about freed slaves desiring to go back into slavery. its unclear origins as an african american folk song plagiarized by a white person make it difficult to declare the exact intentions of the lyrics themselves. But the facts that the song existed as a black faced minstrel song upon being published in New York, and its legacy as an unofficial confederate anthem give the song an undeniably highly charged history linked to racism.Some thing (talk) 18:35, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Dixie As A Region

while i appreciate the effort to distinguish dixie as a region. i feel this section has some problems that are difficult to separate from POV. for instance dixie as a region being a place that observes "confederate traditions". the only aspects of the failed confederate government that live on today are the memorials to confederate soldiers, wich is a "post confederate" tradition. in some cases you may find those who identify with there confederate heritage as a nationality. but in general, i dont see what distinguishes a confederate "tradition" as apposed to what had already been established as southern traditions or culture. also portion that describes the regional location is a little abstract and would be best suited with a map from a reputable source. the only way i can imagine such a map being made would be from a survey asking poeople in america if they lived in dixie. Some thing 16:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

>>Thanks for this input, and points are well noted. This is something I asked originally on the Southern United States page, and am extremely interested in. That is, opinions, and help on "fleshing out" this article.

>>Anyway, you are right. Much of this IS, for the moment, POV. For gosh sakes, let's ALL improve it!

>> BUT, I maintain, that the "Confederate tradition" is not just to be found in neglected monuments, but in official holidays, the use of the mascot "Rebel" and "Dixie" as a fight song for some high schools in certain parts of the South. This counts for a hell of a lot.

>>You have a good point though, that I hope was mentioned, in that "Dixie" has become more percieved, in a modern day sense, as vernacular, as opposed to concrete historical. For instance, West Texas, most of Florida, and northern Virginia, properly speaking ARE part of Dixie! BUT...how many in those locations would see it that way today?

>>The definition of Dixie is more emotional in meaning, than is "The South." Anyway, I wrote this section with the hope it can become something good! TexasReb 22:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

>>Just as an additional point related to the one made by the OP, a survey asking people if they lived in Dixie, and map based on the same, would be a great addition. While Dr. John Shelton Reed (mentioned extensively on the Southern U.S. discussion page) has done quite a few studies attempting to locate "The South" by where people said they lived there, to my knowledge nothing has ever been doing similar with Dixie. Would be a great idea, though. TexasReb 21:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Texasreb, for the citation of the study about where Dixie is. I have a couple of comments, though. First, would you mind adding a "References" section at the end of the article and then adding a full-form reference to the study there? Second, you write that the study concludes that "the deliniating lines measuring over 6% remained fairly constant in covering most of the Old Confederate States, minus all but the far eastern sections of Texas". Are you sure this is eastern Texas? One would think western Texas would be a more likely cut-off point. Thanks! — Brian (talk) 22:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

>>Thanks Brian, and you are ABSOLUTELY right as concerns the way it was originally worded, vis a vis regions of Texas, being screwed up! I DID do a bit of rewording, but need to do some more, and will, especially in citing and adding sources and references related to your well taken second point! TexasReb 23:51, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

one last thing, this section needs help being wikified. (links, citations... etc) Some thing 16:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

>>I would greatly appreciate a little assistance in adding a reference page and citation. I am a bit of a novice at this particular aspect of Wikipedia, and wouldn't want to screw it up! Would one of you mind helping with this? The information concerning the source on the business listings comparrison study is as follows: "The Shrinking South and the Dissolution of Dixie" John Shelton Reed (with J. Kohl and C. Hanchette), Social Forces 69 (September 1990): 221-233. Thanks much in advance! Afterwards, I am sure I can figure it out for latter updates, additions, etc. TexasReb 17:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

i think Ethno-telephony could be of valuable use as well.Some thing 23:50, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

>>Thanks much for the assistance in citing and referencing! (I think I have it down now! LOL) Also, for the great additions and such! I can see this article becoming something of note if we keep at it! TexasReb 00:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem with nearly every interpretation of Dixie is that it's nearly always defined as an adjective, when it's actually a noun. Hence, I would argue that it's not dynamic and subject to change. I note this because some regions that are frequently exempted today are still more closely tied to Dixie than others that are never exempted. The idea seems to be that as more outsiders inhabit Dixie regions that these regions become less Dixie. This is not only untrue, but it's also using Dixie as an adjective to describe the region, pertinent to the user's bias -- either for, or against, specific cultures that inhabit the region -- and the user's perception of what it means to be "Dixie". For example, if "Dixie" means "backwards", then most people would identify Arkansas as more "Dixie" than Florida, and yet, I believe you will find more Dixie references in the State of Florida, than inside the State of Arkansas, even today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.164.137.133 (talk) 07:07, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Opinions On Improving Dixie Song Portion

>>Since we are adding/improving the needed "Dixie As A Region" part of the article, I wanted to ask opinions on also doing something more with the "song" portion...? I once wrote a three part article on the history of the song, and thought of adding some parts of it, appropriate and worded right of course, to that particular section. Here is a link to the series: http://usads.ms11.net/dixie.html Again, just wanted to get some opinions first! Thanks! TexasReb 17:06, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

IMO, ideally the section containing the song info would be purely a historical narrative to support the history of the word "dixie" as a reference to a place. IMO, the significant aspect of the song for the purposes of this article is how it took a term that was only used by a minority (likely 'slave song' singers and carnival folk) to describe a small region (likely around new orleans), and through its adoption by the confederacy, brought the word to signify all of the south by all southerners. but we would need citations for every bit of this and any alternative theoretical historical narratives would need inclusion. in the end we cant lose site, that this article is about "dixie" as a name for a place, and spend as few words as possible on the song for just the song's sake. so i would propose having all the dixie song info placed into a narrative called "History of Dixie" rather than "I Wish I Was in Dixie". i found your article to be informative. do you have citations for all that info? Some thing 23:06, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Whatever happens, we should be sure not ot expand the section on the song too much, if at all. There is already a featured article on the song on Wikipedia, and it's pretty good, if I do say so myself. :) Instead, this article should either contain a summary with the "main article" template, or the song's role in popularizing the name "Dixie" should be included in the broader historical description of the term Dixie. — Brian (talk) 09:26, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

>> Thanks y'all, for the great input and points. I had no idea there was already a full-length article on the song itself in Wikipedia and, for that reason, among others noted, would definitely agree with both of you that any additions in this one -- if indeed any at all -- related to the song would need to be very limited and directly related to Dixie as a place. Backtracking to the Wikipedia article Brian, I feel a little foolish now, mentioning my own work! LOL Yours (I am assuming you wrote it!  :-) was much more extensive and researched as an historical piece than mine was, and I very much enjoyed reading it (although, yes, Some Thing, I do have citations and sources for my own work, but was not included in the article itself). On the other hand, mine was more "feature" and "tribute" oriented -- and naturally containing much more POV -- for a Southern webzine publication. Anyway, again, I agree with what y'all say on the topic! TexasReb 17:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

NEW MAP

GREAT new map of Dixie listings! I wish the contributor would come in and talk to us. For one reason, the updated map probably warrants some explanation, deliniation, etc. in the article itself. 66.25.204.117 (talk) 15:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)TexasReb

Other songs that mention Dixie?

In the title seems reasonable - I added Little Feat's. But just mention? What next ... (other) songs that mention California, Yankee, Dallas, etc etc ? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the section listing songs that "mention" Dixie is a probable waste of space. Would anyone pitch a fit if I removed it? — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 16:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

More than three months have passed without comment. I’m removing the section. If anyone objects, we might restore it as a separate list. But it's my view that the section is a non-encyclopedic list with little if any value to WP users. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 18:54, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Delaware and the Mason Dixon Line

All of Delaware lies below the Mason Dixon line. Mason and Dixon's survey work included both the arc boundary between Pennsylvania and Delaware and the line dividing Pennsylvania and Maryland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.160.218.42 (talk) 23:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Mason Dixon

no mention therof?? Surely Mason Dixon is at least one plausible theory of the termLihaas (talk) 19:17, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

It's already in the article - number 3 of the origins section. PaulGS (talk) 02:46, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, sorry.(Lihaas (talk) 09:38, 2 August 2010 (UTC));

Should we keep this image?

Ethnotelephonic_dixie.jpg is the issue. This map, while clearly showing something, has nothing indicating what it is infact showing. I was unable to decipher it. This is made more challenging by their being no section on Wikipedia about Ethnotelephonics, whatever thats supposed to be, and so only has a red link to an edit page. Its also worth noting that the Dixie article is the only place on Wikipedia that uses the phrase "Ethnotelephonics." Curiously, it also doesnt seem to have a spelling which doesnt make the redjaggedline thing appear under them.

I think we should either remove the offending image, or try to track down someone who can write a page explaining what Ethnotelephonics. Since I havent the foggiest what it means or who might know, I will not be able to do this, but I dont want to end up taking down what may very well be an important, meaningful picture. 74.128.56.194 (talk) 05:41, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I moved the image to a place in the text that attempts to explain it. But you’re right, there's still nothing to indicate what the color coding signifies. The image file has little source info. I'm in no mood to track down the article in Social Forces. John Shelton Reed's methodology, as described, invites a lot of questions that are not addressed. So if the image goes away, I won't complain.

Found a relic of a deleted Wikipedia article on another site: Ethnotelephony, it says, is "a technique in cultural geography which involves mapping terms from telephone directories. The technique was invented in 1941 by Peveril Meigs who mapped the frequency of French surnames in Louisiana...." That's all. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 21:17, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Delete, for reasons just stated. Just to make it official. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 16:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Good-bye, Mr. Dixy

The section "Origin of Dixie" currently reads as follows:

The word preserves the name of a "Mr. Dixy", a slave owner on Manhattan Island[citation needed], where slavery was legal until 1827. His rule was so kindly that "Dixy's Land" became famed far and wide as an elysium abounding in material comforts.

The footnote supporting this account reads only "1865 citation" and links to an item in Google Books. That item (referring to a "Mr. Dixie," not "Dixy," and making no mention of Manhattan Island) is in another footnote on p. 98 of Albert Deane Richardson, The Secret Service, the Field, the Dungeon, and the Escape (Hartford, Conn.: American Publishing Co., 1865). (That is how the article footnote should have read — not "1865 citation.") Richardson's note gives as its source "Russell's Diary in America," with no page number. This suggests the book My Diary North and South, by Sir William Howard Russell, the famous Irish correspondent for the Times of London. But a search of that book turns up no such passage about "Mr. Dixie." Instead, the passage is from another book by Russell, Pictures of Southern Life, Social, Political, and Military (New York: James G. Gregory, 1861), p. 125. Russell is describing a Confederate band who saluted him and his party with several tunes, including "Dixie." He then reports:

...and by way of parenthesis, it may be added, if you do not already know the fact, that Dixie's Land is a synonym for heaven. It appears that there was once a good planter, named "Dixie," who died at some period unknown, to the intense grief of his animated property. They found expression for their sorrow in song, and consoled themselves by clamoring in verse for their removal to the land to which Dixie had departed, and where, probably, the revered spirit would be greatly surprised to find himself in their company. Whether they were ill-treated after he died, and thus had reason to deplore his removal, or merely desired heaven in the abstract, nothing known enables me to assert. But Dixie's Land is now generally taken to mean the seceded states, where Mr. Dixie certainly is not, at this present writing. The song and air are the composition of the organized African association, for the advancement of music and their own profit, which sings in New York, and it may be as well to add, that in all my tour in the South, I heard little melody from lips black or white, and only once heard negroes singing in the fields. [Paragraph ends.]

Russell's information does contain a reference to New York, but it is nothing like the information in the article. The tone of Russell's account is casual, anecdotal, the content is notably vague, and he is misinformed about the "composition" of the song he describes, attributing it to members of a New York "African association" — a theory that earns no discussion at the article Dixie (song). It's evident that we're dealing in rumors, possibly a story made up on the spot to pull the Irishman's leg. Incidentally, I found another reference to the story of "Mr. Dixy," the kind New York slave owner, at Dixie (song):

"Dixieland" was originally located on a farm in Long Island New York. This farm was owned by a man named John Dixie. He befriended so many slaves before the Civil War, that his place — "Dixie's Land" — became a sort of a paradise to them. Song writers later transplanted the term "Dixie" to the south.[citation needed]

The source? Something from Ripley's Believe It Or Not! So apparently the only testimony we have for "Mr. Dixie" is an unspecified cartoon. Even if we could track down the original cartoon, it would not contain a source citation. I feel confident in stating that Ripley's Believe It Or Not does not qualify as a WP:RS (just as Prince Valiant is not cited in articles about medieval history).

So I hope everyone understands why I am deleting the myth of "Mr. Dixy" from the theories about the origin of the name Dixie. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 20:28, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Dagnabbit. I had only scanned the first graf of that section, which attributes the three origin theories to A Dictionary of Americanisms on Historical Principles (1951), by Mitford M. Mathews. The only way to evaluate that source is to track down a printed, bound copy of it.

I still find the language of the article ("famed far and wide," "elysium abounding in material comforts") to be a long way from the style appropriate to an encyclopedia. But before deleting or revising, I will do my best to track down this book and see if the trail of Mr. Dixie or Dixy extends any further. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 20:41, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

External links section

I checked all three links in this section. The last two of them are dead and the first one of them links to an image that is already present in the article. I am posting the links here in case anyone wants to try to find substitutes for the last two of them. In the meantime I deleted the section. Invertzoo (talk) 00:54, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• "Dixie's Land" Sheet music from the United States Library of Congress
• Lyrics to "I Wish I Was in Dixie"
• clip of "The Carter Family" singing about Dixie

Origins of the Name "Dixie"

The idea that the word Dixie was invented is slightly bizarre considering the fact that the Lord Mayor of London in the year 1585 was named Sir Wolstan Dixie and the Dixie family has continued to the present day. Jack Hill 03.02.05

Although an uncommon usage dixie can also be used for pot or kettle. As in "he stirred the stew in the dixie." Might be useful to disambiguate.

While in Charleston, SC, I was told by a hobby historian on Middleton Plantation that the name Dixie came from rice bales. A whole bale of rice was called a "dixie" (I don't remember if he said, why), and since rice was the gold of the South, it came to be identified with the South. Petra from Germany, but with heart lost to Charleston, 31.01.06

I'd like to see more thorough discussion of the origins of the name in the article. I find the statement "The Mason-Dixon theory is the most popularly known, but few lexicographers give it much weight," to sound throwaway and unsubstantiated. IT may be the case, but I would like to see WHICH lexicographers discount it, and their reasons for discounting it. On the base of this article, the first two theories seem equally suspect and unsubstantiated (though after reading more about the "Mr. Dixy of Manhattan" theory and its links to the song, it seems more realistic). Indeed, the first theory about New Orleans and the bank notes sounds especially specious, considering NO was part of Lousiana, which had a relatively new connection to the South in 1859, as well as an entirely different Gallic culture from the rest of the South. It seems to me that a nickname from such a remote, new, and culturally different part of the South would not be readily adopted by the rest of the region. Other sites I have looked this up on confirm the unlikeliness of the bank note theory: http://www.wisegeek.com/how-did-the-southern-us-get-to-be-called-dixie. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Mmyers1976 (talk • contribs).

Sorry, Mmyers, I removed the quote, as it was very long and violates our copyright policy. But you're right: This article could do with a great bit of expansion from a careful editor willing to sift through the competing views and cite reliable sources throughout. This could be a very good article with a little tender loving care. One problem I see with your argument above is that you seem to be assuming that the name "Dixie" was adopted by the whole region because it was a banknote or named for a New York farmer or named for the Mason-Dixon Line (sorry to put words in your mouth). The truth is that the name did not come into wide use until after the song of the same name became popular. So, the real question becomes, "Where did the writer(s) of the song 'Dixie' get that name for the South?" This gives the competing theories a bit more wind in their sails, since a single songwriter can take inspiration from anywere. — Brian (talk) 22:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

i agree with brian. it may be worth while to layout a timeline of possible origins, all of which would converge into the song being taken up by the confederacy. i would also like to mention that i believe that its chorus is a slave tune and not of emmetts imagination. i also find it hard to believe that a slave owner with sizable land in manhatten "who was known far and wide" so that even emmett in ohio would have heard of him could have existed if you consider that there is not a single documentation of a "mr dixy" who could fit that description. Some thing 16:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking of removing the statement "The Mason-Dixon theory is the most popularly known, but few lexicographers give it much weight," because I can't find anything resembling a source for it. Some courses even contradict it. See: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Dixie and http://tafkac.org/language/etymology/dixie.html Emtilt 20:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the theory about Dixie coming from reference to French "Dix" notes is the most probable. Read Jason Goodwin's book "Greenback," an extremely detailed and meticulously researched financial history of the development of coinage and currency in this country. His research and references, and his detailed explanation, pretty much confirm the story.98.170.194.139 (talk) 23:47, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Note that the original title of the song was 'Dixie's Land'. This seems to make the John Dixie theory more likely, although it is not clear why the South should be named after a slave anthem celebrating either a Northern landowner or a notional plantation in paradise. (Confederates would hardly be likely to sing about this.) Re the banknote theory, it may not have been the name that the locals used to denote the South; it is more likely to have been the Northern nickname for the region, as travellers changed their money at the frontier ("Pay me in Dixies"). As for the Mason-Dixon theory, this is looking like a popular fallacy that deserves a decent burial. But maybe the rice-vessel idea merits more investigation. Valetude (talk) 23:20, 14 September 2013 (UTC)