Talk:Dixieland jazz

Text to incorporate

This text was moved from Dixieland music, and needs to be incorporated (most of it is already in the article:

"Dixieland" is often concidered the first true type of Jazz, and was the first music refered to by the term jazz (before 1917 often spelled "jass"). The style combined earlier Ragtime and Blues with collective improvisation.

This jazz style developed in New Orleans early in the 20th century, and was first spread by New Orleans musicians to Chicago and New York in the mid 1910s.

Some musicians and music historians prefer the terms "Classic Jazz" or "Traditional Jazz" to "Dixieland".— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeronimo (talk • contribs) 09:13, 23 September 2002 (UTC)

Done. I wrote the above to fill in a pre-existing link to "Dixieland_Music". I've incorporated that (with some other additions) ind "Dixieland".— Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.58.113.72 (talk) 10:43, 23 September 2002 (UTC)

Origin of name

is the origin of the name "dixieland" known?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarquin (talk • contribs) 13:47, 25 November 2002 (UTC)

Sure, "In Dixie Land I'll take my stand, to live and Die in Dixie!" From the great old song that is now hardly ever heard (for reasons I sympathize with, but I *love* that song). And the name of the music came from the Original Dixieland Jass Band. What isn't known is the origin of the word Dixie. Two most prominent theories are the Mason-Dixon line separating north from south and the Dix on the French 10-dollar coins from New Orleans. That Georgia Peach, Ortolan88— Preceding undated comment added 15:00, 25 November 2002 (UTC)

To add: audio file

needs a sample music file!— Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuzzbox (talk • contribs) 13:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not remove #4

The problem with the new manifestation of Traditional Jazz is that people are being a little too traditional. There is a new movement going on yet every time someone mentions it on this page, someone else says "I dont recognize this" and deletes it. If you don't want Dixieland to die with your generation, maybe you could read the paragraph and click the links. Don't worry, learning new things in the post bebop era does not cause prostate tumors. You might find something interesting. Its obvious that anyone on this page has a place in their heart for Dixieland music. Lets not keep if locked up in a museum. College kids (and younger) are turning out in droves to see this these shows. There's no reason to be against that. I beleive the paragraph was mistaken for a personal plug. I doubt Phish and MMW have as much free time as we do. This was a legit addition to the article. Thank you— Preceding unsigned comment added by Heyball (talk • contribs) 17:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Please sign your comments by adding "~~~~" at the end. Certainly Wikipedia should cover jam bands, but it is not part of traditional or "Dixieland" jazz. The influence of Trad jazz on that style, as well as swing, contemporary brass band, hip hop etc are topics we could use more on. please see Wikipedia:NPOV. Cheers, --— Preceding unsigned comment added by Infrogmation (talk • contribs) 17:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you may have missed the point. Dixieland has now entered the jam band scene, and even made a rivaval in it. But I can see you're not going to allow wikipedia to see past your own horizons. I think some people just feel safe when they think they know everything. Normally, I tell these people to stay home when I meet them at jazz clubs. In your case I'd say the opposite.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.189.68.212 (talk • contribs) 05:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

~I would have to agree with the first comment about not deleting the modern Dixieland. Wiki:NPOV seems like it would rather you not delete the section. I missed the chance to read this #4, but I gather what's going on by reading these comments. I too have noticed a revival of trad Jazz as of lately. I understand that it commonly takes place along side the jam band circuit. I would like to point out that "Jam Band" is not a style of music. It refers to the scene. That is to say, a dixieband could easily be considered a Jam Band and in my opinion is the original form of Jam Bands. Bonaroo is a world class music festival for Jam bands. I saw Dirty Dozen there. Does that mean they're not traditional now? Dixie bands of long ago would be proud of the youngsters who are today playing their traditions. Of course they're going to play it where it fits. It may not be New Orleans anymore but the feeling is the same. If #4 was referring to that, I say put it back. Long live Dixie.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Professor A (talk • contribs) 05:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Clearly we need an article on Psychedelic Dixieland. The Dirty Dozen certainly is not an example of that, but is another modern offshoot. Certainly not Dixieland; they created a unique new style on their own which has been very influential. -- Infrogmation 05:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Etymology section and the term "Creole Jazz"

Since it is mentioned in the etymology that non-creole bands used the term "Creole Jazz" to describe their band, I am going to adjust this section just a bit.

The idea that the word "Creole" in this sense is used to discribe the ethnic makeup of the band is disproven by the fact that some of these bands were not made up of Creoles. Therefore, this interpretation of the term "Creole" seems to be original research unless it can be sourced. Rag-time4 08:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think an important part it was the influence of the success of the Original Creole Orchestra. (Hm, we still don't have an article on them... oh yeah, I think I'd just finished Larry Gushee's great book about them shortly before some major distractions came up here in New Orleans two years ago... anyway...) King Oliver's band seems to have inherited the term directly through Bill Johnson (jazz musician). I think Dutrey might have been the only actual "Creole" in Oliver's band when it recorded. Another factor in bands labeling themselves "Creole" may have been that the term suggested being a bit "above" simply being Black in the era's racial segregation and prejudices. -- Infrogmation 12:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Etymology section

Lots of POV and OR, no sources. I think this section needs to be stripped down to a few sentences. Most of it is unsourced generalization.Verklempt (talk) 02:59, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Standards

The list was just merged to List of jazz standards (per discussion at talk). You may wish to incorporate a small/referenced part of the old list of dixieland standards in this article. Just a note. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:43, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Name of article

The name of the article is "Dixieland". The article starts out talking about "Chicago style jazz". Why? 129.16.121.43 (talk) 15:09, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Dixie is a region encompassing most of the Confederacy. This music did not originate from, nor was it played in, Tampa, Charleston, Montgomery, Talahassee, Richmond, Greensboro, Atlanta, etc. Rather, it originated from New Orleans. Also, the music has no association with the concept of the Confederacy. Hence this type of music ought to be called New Orleans Jazz, just as Italian opera is called Italian opera, Viennese waltzes are called Viennese waltzes, etc. even though they are performed in many different places. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Palmleaf (talk • contribs) 21:54, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree completely. When the style was developing, it was not called "Dixieland" and it developed in one locale, New Orleans, not throughout the Land of Dixie. The "Dixieland" moniker wasn't applied to the music until the 1940s effort to revive it, and the music promoted during that revival was often quite different from the original New Orleans jazz. There is record of New Orleans musicians travelling up the Mississippi, to New York, and to the west coast before 1917, but not through the deep south. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.111.51.98 (talk) 01:06, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

The list of musicians fits the "Dixieland" theme in the sense that it includes the revivalists, but none of the musicians who were influential in the development of the music through the era of New Orleans jazz that ended in 1917. Louis Armstrong became influential after the New Orleans era. I think it would be appropriate to keep this page focused on revival styles, which are after all loved by many and an authentic part of the American cultural scene, but revise it to distinguish it more from the music that developed in New Orleans. It was a shock to click on a link to "New Orleans Jazz" and have it direct to this page. New Orleans jazz should be a separate page from this one.75.111.51.98 (talk) 04:33, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Can we call this article "Traditional Jazz"? This is a much less offensive term than "Dixieland", is more accurate, and is the preferred terminology among musicians and academics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:B10C:3BE0:A865:CE7:326E:FDF0 (talk) 16:31, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree. In the article, for history's sake, perhaps mention how it is/was a term used, but the "Dixie" term can be offensive, and takes nothing away from the facts at hand. "Dixieland Jazz" could redirect. How can this be done? Jasonchammond (talk) 05:09, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

In my estimation, moving the page to Traditional jazz would not only be feasible but ideal. I checked the pages it links to and it's a smattering of both 1920s jazz acts and revival bands from all over the world, not just the 1950s British revival that it currently redirects to. Since the page already seems to be used in the way we would like it to be used, we would need to do very little redirect cleanup. Marisauna (talk) 00:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

It seems to me that we should open this discussion back up. The term "Dixieland" is an outdated and offensive term. The first group recorded to have used the term Dixieland was the Original Dixieland Jazz Band, which was an all-white band who advertised themselves as the originators of jazz (anyone familiar at all with jazz history should find that claim laughable). Their leader, Nick LaRocca was notorious for saying that "[his] “contention is that the Negroes learned to play this rhythm and music [Jazz] from the whites. The Negro did not play any kind of music equal to white men at any time.” Since then, the term Dixieland has chiefly been used by primarily or exclusively white bands, who were either deliberately identifying themselves with the racist concepts associated with the ODJB and the term "Dixieland" in general (it bears reminding that referring to the South as "Dixie" was popularized, if not necessarily originated, in the Civil War). While some bands have used the term innocently, especially in more recent years, the term still has a racist origin, and I don't feel that Wikipedia should be identifying the style of Traditional Jazz with such a term. I suggest that we rename the article to either "Traditional Jazz" (which currently redirects to the article Trad Jazz, which was a revival style, and should probably be named something like "Trad Jazz Revival (UK)," since I doubt anyone searching for "Traditional Jazz" is looking for info on a British revival style) or "New Orleans Style Jazz," and include a section about alternative names, which would include the term Dixieland - with a mention of its origins. --The Posthuman Demian (talk) 13:18, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with The Posthuman Demian, this discussion definitely should be opened back up. Firstly, because "Dixieland" in common speech more often than not refers to what is covered in the article Dixie. Secondly, because there are plenty of other coordinate terms, such as the aforementioned "New Orleans jazz" and "traditional jazz," or the contemporary "hot jazz." If in spite of this we decide to keep "Dixieland" as a qualifier, we should still at least rename the article "Dixieland jazz" to avoid confusion (see reason 1). Marisauna (talk) 21:17, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Contradiction

Did this style of jazz develop in Chicago or New Orleans? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.211.37.125 (talk) 05:08, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

It looks like this edit by IP 99.108.126.112 created the contradiction: [1]. The lead should always start with the title of the article and explain things from this term on. The article does explain that Chicago Jazz was a development from the original Dixieland style. Also the top dab was changed and it has to go back to disambiguate the term Dixieland, not an "area of the United States colloquially referred to as "Chicago"."(!) However, I have no opinion on whether the term "Hot Jazz" refers only to Chicago Jazz or to Dixieland as well, so I will leave that explanation in the lead. For any further changes, please keep in mind that "Hot Jazz" redirects here, so it should be mentioned in bold somewhere in the first few lines. Hoverfish Talk 15:12, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Sicily Integrated With The African American Community To Create Dixieland.

Please don't cover this up.2601:447:4101:41F9:7827:E592:4B47:AAD1 (talk) 02:38, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Please don't introduce new concepts into the lead section in violation of WP:LEAD. And don't overstate the Sicilian influence, which is a new bit of scholarship anyway. Decades of musicologist research places the much greater emphasis on African American roots. Binksternet (talk) 02:41, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Clarinets/Sax Missing

In the inset tabular summary typical instruments seems too limited — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.244.219 (talk) 20:49, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 22 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans 08:00, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

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Dixieland jazz → Traditional jazz – See #Name of article, a discussion which has been revived several times. "Traditional jazz" is more neutral, more academic, and less controversial; "Dixieland" is associated mainly with revival movements and also has a tinge of racism to it. Marisauna (talk) 12:45, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, this historical American form of music is named Dixieland jazz with no racist overtone ('Dixie', is simply a nickname for the Southern United States) and, per the n-grams where Dixieland jazz is the overwhelming choice, this RM might as well be about uppercasing 'Jazz', not changing the historic and long-accepted name of a respected musical form. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:08, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

p.s. Here's a one-on-one ngram comparison of the proposed titles. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

• Question: What is the primary meaning of "traditional jazz"? Trad jazz or Dixieland jazz? Are those really two distinct things? Is "traditional jazz" an ambiguous term? wbm1058 (talk) 11:25, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  From what I can tell, "traditional jazz" refers both to the original style of jazz as performed in the 1920s, and the movements meant to revive this specific style (of which British "trad jazz" is one of many). The redirect as it stands seems to be used in this more general way, hence my earlier attempt to change the target. I would prefer to leave discussion of the specifics to people who know more about jazz than I do.

  (For what it's worth, I believe this is a separate issue from the title change.) Marisauna (talk) 16:03, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  It's not really a separate issue. Your proposed title change would retarget some 87 page links from "trad" to "Dixieland". I'm not familiar enough with these topics to feel comfortable with their disambiguation. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:23, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. "Dixieland" is used in The Oxford Dictionary of Music and Grove Music Online, both academic sources. The latter notes that "traditional jazz" is used for "the post-1940 revival of this music". Zacwill (talk) 21:18, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Traditional jazz redirects to Trad jazz, as it should do. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.