Talk:Doctorin' the Tardis

Name

The sleeve image says "Doctorin' the Tardis" (small "t" in "the") so I'm thinking the page should be moved? Either way, a redirect would be handy as both forms are currently in use (i.e. Doctorin' the Tardis - currently red - has incoming links too). --kingboyk 18:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I reckon the sleeve title merits being the article being moved. Thanks for doing that, I'll get the links pointing to the small 't' page. I'm still in two minds about where all the Doctorin' content belongs. I guess it's best here because of the amount of detail concerning the one song? --Vinoir 18:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Looks like you already did it :-) If you like, you continue working on this while I trim some of the lesser details out of The KLF? --kingboyk 19:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh it wasn't you heh heh, must have been the Capitalisation poLice. Oh well. :) --kingboyk 19:15, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Seems you aren't editing at the moment, so I'm gonna tweak a few things in this article. --kingboyk 19:21, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry we keep getting conflicts! Please tinker away, the mutual eagerness is great! I'll be working at links for a bit (and am off out shortly). --Vinoir 19:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Good article nomination

Almost there I think, but I would just like to see the references cleaned up - the separation into references and notes makes it unclear as to what actually has been used as a reference. Worldtraveller 20:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Discographies for tracklisting info, the Library provided the articles used in the footnotes. I don't see anything against the guidelines in having general article-wide references seperate from citations, but if it's a problem we'll just delete the former and rename the latter. --kingboyk 11:02, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

You mentioned in an edit summary that maybe the JAMs should have their own article (actually that they "deserve" one). That was the original scheme, but as part of my article improvement drive I reversed it. I'd be very reluctant to split the JAMs out again, because they are essentially the same band, different name. As it is, the duo already have two biography articles, with The KLF covering their musical work from 1987-1992, and an overview of before and since, and the K Foundation covering 1993-1997+. --kingboyk 14:54, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

OK then - my concern was that the link, as it was, didn't work because a section heading had changed. Linking to sections is unstable like that. I would still consider having two separate articles - Sub Sub and Doves are the same people under a different name but I'd still consider them separate bands. I'm concerned about your reference to the JAMs being controversial though - first of all it's something of an opinion, and also a general reader won't know why they are controversial, or why it's necessary to mention here that they are (or are considered by some to be) controversial. It really needs more explanation. Worldtraveller 15:02, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks. We'll have a think about it. It's probably not vital, it just adds a bit to the narrative. --kingboyk 15:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: the refs - nothing wrong at all with having general and specific ones - just that your section headings made it really unclear. As they are all references, I merged the two sections, and have listed the article as good. Worldtraveller 23:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Lovely job, your input and dedication to the project is much appreciated! --kingboyk 08:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Re the band names, it's not quite as simple as the case cited. Let's quote a lyric from a KLF record (The White Room): "This is what KLF are about, also known as the Justified Ancients of Mu Mu, furthermore known as the JAMs". On the 1997 single "Fuck the Millennium" under yet another name (2K), the lyrics state "this record was produced by the artists forever known as the Justified Ancients of Mu Mu". On Shag Times, some earlier JAMs recordings were remixed and credited to the KLF. "Justified & Ancient" was a record by the KLF, referencing the Justified Ancients, and based on an earlier JAMs recording ""Hey Hey We Are Not The Monkees"! In other words, KLF, Timelords, 2K etc are alter egos of Cauty and Drummond or of the Justified Ancients of Mu Mu, and not different bands.

One could construct a strong argument that Cauty and Drummond are the Justified Ancients of Mu Mu, and the other names are their aliases. Another way of looking at it is, if it's on KLF Communications it's a KLF record. Their biography is named The KLF per WP:COMMONNAME. A quick scan of the coverage of their 2017 comeback as the JAMs, referenced in Welcome to the Dark Ages, demonstrates this: most of the coverage referred to a return of The KLF as opposed to a return of The JAMs. Career retrospectives such as the episode "The KLF" in BBC Scotland's "Rip It Up Unwrapped" series almost invariably do the same. tl;dr The various pseudonyms are incarnations of the same band, a band overwhelmingly known as The KLF despite that not being their original nor (as of the time of writing) current name. --kingboyk (talk) 19:17, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

New addition & another job

The following new addition needs to be verified and moved to a better position within the article: "The song also features the riff from another of Glitter's recordings, "Leader Of The Gang"." Which makes me think: we don't have a section called "Composition".

Doctorin' (and Gary Joins The JAMs) ought to be mentioned in Gary Glitter, either in the main article body or the Trivia section (probably the former, it did get him the front cover of NME after all).

I think both of these jobs are more up your street than mine Vinoir... (Summarising compositions, and short but sweet additions to other articles are both things you excel at as far as I can see). --kingboyk 15:08, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll have a look. "Composition", "Formats and track listings" and "Personnel" sections are needed. --Vinoir 10:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ambient house

I've just heard the eerie "Gary In The Tardis (Minimal)" for the first time. I bought the 12" ages ago when I was away from home with no turntable, and I forgot I'd got it. Have you listened to it recently? Pre-dating "3 a.m. Eternal (Blue Danube Orbital)", this is surely The KLF's first "ambient house" track?

Also, I'd forgotten how hilarious "Gary In The Tardis (Radio)" is.

I think samples of both "Gary (Radio)" and "Gary (Minimal)" would be justified, especially if our aim is "Featured". --Vinoir 11:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Er...and "Doctorin'" too, of course... oops. That ogg sample's poor quality, I'll find a better one. --Vinoir 00:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Listening now... "Minimal" is just that, isn't it. "Gary In The Tardis (Radio)" is class, a lot of fun. --kingboyk 11:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Dalek feet

I really think the photo from the video should have the (human) feet coming out the bottom of the crudely designed "Dalek" - that's my favourite part of the video. Also, isn't there a quote in The Manual that they approached the BBC to get some real Daleks but they said no. That video is almost worth an article of its own - it really made the song - it is pure trash class, cheers Drstuey 10:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Doctorin' the Tardis/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

As part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles' Project quality task force ("GA Sweeps"), all old good articles are being re-reviewed to ensure that they meet current good article criteria (as detailed at WP:WIAGA.) I have determined that this article needs quite a bit of work to meet current criteria, outlined below:

• I think the lead could be beefed up. The last "paragraph" isn't really a paragraph at all. The reception should probably be moved down, and a little more information on the context added to the lead.
• Along the same lines, an issue with one or two-sentence quasiparagraphs is pervasive through the article. These either need to be expanded to a minimum of three sentences, merged elsewhere, or cut entirely.
• Unsourced statements:
  • "The release of "Doctorin' the Tardis" followed a self-imposed break from recording of Drummond and Cauty's sampling outfit, The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu (The JAMs). The single continued The JAMs' strategy of plagiarising and juxtaposing popular musical works. However, unlike the cultish limited releases of The JAMs, in which Drummond's Clydeside rapping and social commentary were regular ingredients, "Doctorin' The Tardis" was an excursion into the musical mainstream, with the change of name to "The Timelords" and an overt reliance on several iconic symbols of 1970s and 80s British popular culture, including Glitter, the Doctor Who theme song, references to Doctor Who's Daleks and the TARDIS), Sweet's "Blockbuster!" and Harry Enfield's character 'Loadsamoney'." is sourced to [1], which mentions none of the content attributed to it? Perhaps an old/outdated link?
  • "The song also features the riff from another of Glitter's recordings, "I'm the Leader of the Gang (I Am)". Its name is a reference to "Doctorin' the House" by Coldcut."
  • "The "Timelord" component of Ford's name arrives from the Time Lords, a fictional alien race from the planet Gallifrey in Doctor Who." (iffy on this... might be 'common knowledge' enough, but considering we are asserting a connection it would probably be best to cite it.)
  • "While the music-buying public of the UK embraced the single, taking it to the number-one spot within three weeks of its release, the music press were strongly negative." First off, I don't see a ref for the #1 chart position, but secondly, you can't really assert that the entire music press was negative with just two reviews; you need to find an actual explicit cite for that info.
  • Most of "Legacy" is unsourced.
• References: What makes http://www.libraryofmu.org/ a reliable source? Also, http://www.kasino.co.uk/klf.txt is a dead link.

I am putting the article on hold for seven days pending improvements. Keep me appraised of progress in this space. Thanks, Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 19:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

As no progress has been made on the above, I am delisting. I am encouraging any interested party to make improvements; the article can be renominated at WP:GAN at any time. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 16:19, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Some years later: Thanks.

• The Library of Mu is not a source, it's an archive. This is now being made clear by use of "via" and citation templates. One needs to access the original magazines to verify the material - it is they which are cited, not the library.
• I'll remove "While the music-buying public of the UK embraced the single, taking it to the number-one spot within three weeks of its release, the music press were strongly negative" and replace with a "Critical reception" section. The 3 major music weeklies at the time were NME, Melody Maker and Sounds. We had reviews from 2 of the 3. We don't appear to have an NME review, which is unfortunate. You're right. They might have loved the record!
• I am improving the citations and references including bad links you mentioned
• I don't have time to take articles through GA at the moment

--kingboyk (talk) 00:19, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

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Ford Timelord

I found some incredible research about Ford Timelord and the KLF's career on the Autoshite forum and have ensured that archive.org has a snapshot of it archived (page 1 at least). Whilst the forum post itself of course can't be referenced, it might point to other sources. There's 17 pages and I haven't got past page 1 yet (nor will I likely have time today, if ever).

Unrelated to Doctorin', but one thing which caught me eye is that there's a picture of the Nissan the K Foundation painted the moratorium on, along with it actually going off the cliff, so I wonder if there was ever a news article about that?

It also seems that the reports of Ford Timelord dying in a demolition derby may not be entirely true but, whatever happened to it, it seems the car is no more. --kingboyk (talk) 23:50, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

"Sports anthem"

@JMyrleFuller: I endorse your edit here, as the sentence was poorly written, totally unsourced and - as it read at the time - arguably trivia. Also, not being American myself I have no idea if this song is significant in US sports or not.

Hwoever, while looking at sources I found AllMusic (Bush, John. The History of the JAMS a.k.a. The Timelords - Justified Ancients of Mu Mu at AllMusic. Retrieved 8 March 2020.) saying that this track is "perhaps the most popular sports anthem ever recorded". That's quite a bold statement which if true would push the assertion up past the level of trivia. Any thoughts, or any sources which say it's Glitter that's played and not the Timelords? --kingboyk (talk) 22:17, 8 March 2020 (UTC) (please ping if you reply)

@Kingboyk: I have no idea where allmusic got that unless they confused it with the Glitter original (and judging by the rest of the article, which makes note of other samples are on that particular album, I'd guess it was a haphazard edit that changed the meaning of what he probably meant). There are several sources in the Rock and Roll (Gary Glitter song) article that attest to Glitter's version at least previously being used (and one that notes a cover by Tube Tops 2000 was used for a time after Glitter got into trouble with the law); none have I ever seen or heard have made mention of the Timelords. Now, is it possible that it got used in the UK where Doctor Who is more popular? Perhaps, but I know of no sources that tell me so, and it's almost certainly not here in America, where that song never had much of an impact except perhaps on the old Dr. Demento show years ago. J. Myrle Fuller (talk) 22:52, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

@JMyrleFuller: I'm not aware of the Timelords song being a popular sports anthem in the UK (my home country) in the past or present, and Glitter is very much persona non grata in the UK today. We'll leave the article as is. Thank you for your edit and for the prompt reply. --kingboyk (talk) 22:57, 8 March 2020 (UTC)