Talk:Dodecaborate

Misleading article title

I have revised the contents of this article, There remains a serious issue: the title of the article is very misleading.

1. The article deals with the [B₁₂H₁₂]^2- anion. The anion cannot exist by itself in a chemical compound. It must be in a salt with the formula like Na₂[B₁₂H₁₂] or Ca[B₁₂H₁₂]. It can exist as an ion in solution.
2. The ion is not a borate. Borates have the generic formula [B_mO_n]^x-

I don't like Dodecaborane anion because it can be misread as a carborane. Is Dodeca-borane anion acceptable? The dodeca-borane anion would be better, but may not be allowed by Wikipedia rules. Petergans (talk) 11:13, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

The policy for names here is to use the common name found in reliable writings. This precludes us making up a name. (though it has happened elsewhere on Wikipedia where someone took the name Wikipedia gave it and published). It looks to be also called closo-dodecaborate. It may also be suffixed with di-anion or dianion. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 13:02, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

regarding objection 1, we could convert the article to some common salt. The cited Inorganic Syntheses produces the bis (Et₃NH⁺ salt. I also prefer articles on compounds vs ions.

about objection 2, one compromise name is dodecahydrododecaborate, which is used by Muetterties.--Smokefoot (talk) 13:25, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Regardless of what compounds of these ions were called originally, the chemical ambiguity regarding the 'borate part of the article title must be resolved. I think that the -ate suffix has been used to indicate that the compound in an anion, but unfortunately borate has another connotation. For comparison (from article naphthalene), "With alkali metals, naphthalene forms the dark blue-green radical anion salts such as sodium naphthalenide" but a boride ending would also be ambiguous. Petergans (talk) 14:44, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

We should add a sentence to the lede to make the distinction from borate clear. "dodecahydrododecaborate" seems to be used only about 10% of the use of Dodecaborate, so should have a mention and redirect, but not be the name of the page. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 01:24, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Maybe this link to an official IUPAC page helps: https://www.iupac.org/publications/ci/2013/3505/Sept13_Nomenclature%20Notes.pdf Simon de Danser (talk) 22:01, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Numbering scheme

The numbering scheme should specify what the orientation of the molecule is. I suppose the viewpoint is looking down from B1 to the B atom at the far end (B12). But maybe I am wrong. Simon de Danser (talk) 21:58, 2 January 2019 (UTC)