Talk:Domestication

Definitions

This article makes it seem as if the definition of domestication was done, settled and neatly defined after Zeder's definition, which isn't really true. The definition doesn't account for similar relationships existing outside of humanity, such as fungiculture in termites and ants. Reality is that the term is still pretty ill defined in scientific literature, and although attempts are being made to properly define it, different scientific disciplines still define it in different ways. I was planning to add a little sentence myself and call it done, but now I'm seeing that Purugganan 2022, a source addressing these issues, is used to back up the definition it criticizes. Not sure what do now, as I'm new to this editing, but this seems wrong! Lord Lemonpie (talk) 01:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Best would be to add something from Purugganan. Why not draft a short paragraph here on this talk page? Chiswick Chap (talk) 02:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I've added a paragraph in 'Definitions', and a diagram. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Definition in lead

User:Wolfdog has now twice reverted my edits on the definition in the lead, contrary to WP:BRD, a very well-established policy, and has had the temerity to ask me to explain here on the talk page, rather than going to D-for-Discuss themselves as they should have.

Be that as it may, the definition in the lead *must* reflect that in the Definitions section, which after the revert it now doesn't. It would have been far better to have respected the BRD policy and left the article in a consistent state.

Wolfdog's complaint in the most recent edit comment was "you're new grammar doesn't really work", ironically ungrammatical but at least intelligible. The phrasing that apparently didn't work was "a multi-generational mutualistic relationship between the domesticating species and other organisms, in which it takes over control and care to obtain a steady supply of resources or services including food." Reading this again, it's hard to see what might be hard to understand here.

The key bit of context for editors not familiar with the definition is that the species doing the domesticating could be H. sapiens, but could equally well be one of the insects that have domesticated fungi, such as a leafcutter ant. Thus the domesticator could be {Human, Ant, Beetle, Termite, ...} and the domesticated species could be {Dog, Horse, Wheat, Fungus, ...}. The choice of language in the lead must reflect this reality.

I'm open to any small tweaks but we urgently need to make the lead reflect the Definitions section. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:04, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, you seem upset, but I assure you I'm open to chatting. The fact I asked to bring the topic to the talk page I think shows my full willingness to discuss. The "irony" of my hasty edit summary (and actually, the problem was spelling not grammar) has nothing to do with the page itself and does nothing to damage the page, so let's focus on the page itself please. Here are some issues:

Since we're defining domestication, it creates a circular definition to include "the domesticating species" in the lede. In the Archive for this page back in 2016 you can see that I've actually agreed with your type of wording that includes the possibility of non-humans when I offered the following: Domestication is a sustained multi-generational relationship in which one organism assumes a significant degree of influence over the reproduction and care of another organism to secure a more predictable supply of a resource of interest. So, how about the wording of "one organism" or "one species" (I even prefer your use of "species") instead of "domesticating species"? I also was reverting the previous past-tense grammar of the lede which is odd and not typical on WP. Wolfdog (talk) 13:23, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I'll have another go. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:40, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I just made a slight tweak to my above response at the same time as you were responding. Wolfdog (talk) 13:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Species is better than organism as the process is multigenerational, i.e. over a much longer timescale than one organism's life; and the domesticator is always an animal. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:48, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Merging

Could we merge this article whith Domestication of vertebrates as they are broadly similar? Oirish baguette (talk) 14:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

It was originally split off from this article, as discussed at Talk:Domestication/Archive_1#Domestication_of_animals_-_proposal_to_SPINOFF. No comment on whether that was a good idea or not. – Joe (talk) 15:34, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Wherever it came from, it now covers domestication of animals, plants, and fungi, and it spans domestication managed by humans and by insects, so it certainly can't be merged to any vertebrates article now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:44, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I assume the idea is to merge domestication of vertebrates into domestication? – Joe (talk) 15:51, 26 June 2024 (UTC)