Talk:Dongjing Meng Hua Lu

Article name

With reference to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) the name of this article should be changed to Dreams of Splendor of the Eastern Capital. Rincewind42 (talk) 16:06, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Could be, but Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) doesn't say "should be," only "generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources (for example other encyclopedias and reference works, scholarly journals and major news sources)." I've found articles going either way, so it seems that the most important thing is to be clear to readers. How would removing the Chinese make things more clear? ch (talk) 06:31, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

One should be the article name, the other should be a redirect to the article. If someone types in Chinese, they will find the article. If someone types in English the will find the article. Nobody ever types in both Chinese and English simultaneously. We don't need both languages in the title. Choose one or the other. The default is to choose English. You need to give good examples of prevalence of the Chinese version for it to supersede the English. Rincewind42 (talk) 17:05, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I can see that you are trying to be consistent, and I have argued for changing titles when it helps readers, but WP:Common Sense applies here: WP:English says of itself that it is is a "generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply."

For such small numbers, "prevalence" is hard to establish, but Chinese clearly outnumbers any one English version. When policy says "generally," the important thing is to have a title which helps the reader. The most common usage is to have one language with a translation into the other in parenthesis. What's wrong with that?

Your very sensible observation about how anyone can find the article by searching either language applies to the present title as well.

If you want numbers, "Dreams of Splendor of the Eastern Capital" Google Search gets too few results to be useful, but on the first page, it's DJMHL 2, DSEC 1, and DJHL(DSEC)1. DJMHL

Google Scholar turns up nothing for DSEC, many hits for DJMHL with a translation in parens. I can see, however, "Record of a Dream of Splendor in the Eastern Capital," "Dream of Glory of the [Former] Oriental Capital," and there may be other translations. Which English title would you use?

I see your point that the present title is not perfect, but I don't see that another would be better.

Cheers ch (talk) 03:12, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

The current title is abnormal. There are no other articles in the Wikipedia:WikiProject China named like this. You uses either the pinyin or the English - never both. I don't need to argue with you about why. There is a long established precedent that this is what we do. Look at Wikipedia:MOS-ZH and WP:NC-CHINA for more details. If you disagree with the naming conventions used on Wikipedia, then argue it out on WT:NC-CHINA not here.

Take for example the Temple of Heaven in Beijing. It could have been titled Tiantan as that is the Chinese pinyin and is sometimes used in English. Instead Tiantan redirects to Temple of Heaven. However it is not titled Tiantan (Temple of Heaven).

If you were to argue that we should have the pinyin and the English then it would follow that we should also put the Cantonese, Wade-Gyles and other forms of the name in the one title and the titles. Take another example: the book Fengshen Yanyi is located under its Chinese pinyin name with a redirect from Fengshen Bang and also The Investiture of the Gods. It is not titled Fengshen Yanyi or Fengshen Bang (The Investiture of the Gods).

Brackets in names are used for disambiguation not for translations or alternative titles. For example Changfeng (missile), Changfeng Automobile and Changfeng County need disambiguation so the word missile goes in the bracket. Brackets are never used as they are in this article.

Based on your scan through Google scholar and also my own search on google books and generally on google web, it would seem that Dongjing Meng Hua Lu is comonly used and Dreams of Splendor of the Eastern Capital is a translation that is subject to variations. There for the article should be moved to Dongjing Meng Hua Lu and redirects created for all the other translations. Rincewind42 (talk) 15:51, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Finally you have made a dispositive argument. It would have saved you and me time if you had made it to begin with, but in any case I see that you are right and should make the move. Cheers! ch (talk) 03:15, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

A week has passed with no further imput, therefore I shall execute the move to Dongjing Meng Hua Lu. Rincewind42 (talk) 17:08, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Translations

The text translated in Ebrey's Chinese Civilization: A Sourceboo is Ducheng jisheng 都城紀勝 (a description of Hangzhou), not Dongjing meng hua lu (a description of Kaifeng). Perhaps this whole section should be removed? --Yizhizhai (talk) 00:17, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

But Ducheng jisheng is a section of Dongjing menghai lu. (Chinese Civilization: A Sourcebook n.41 p.517). ch (talk) 21:05, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Apologies: I wrote too hastily. Duzheng jisheng is a separate work, mainly concerning Hangzhou but including much material on Kaifeng. See the Dorothee Schaab-Hanke article cited. I amended the section accordingly, with thanks to Yizhizhai. ch (talk) 21:37, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I've simply deleted that entire section, since it has nothing to do with Kaifeng (let alone Dongjing menghua lu). It's a completely different text, and the passage in the Chinese Civilization sourcebook refers to Hangzhou, not Kaifeng. In its place, I've added a reference to Stephen H. West's selections of Dongjing menghua lu in Hawai'i Reader of Traditional Chinese Culture. 98.115.255.240 (talk) 04:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)