Talk:Dora Richter/Archive 1

Archive 1

Are the dates correct?

On this page it is stated: "After this there was a long pause, until the beginning of the year 1931, when the penis amputation was done and in June, the here described surgery"—a highly experimental vaginoplasty performed by Dr Erwin Gohrbandt (1890–1965). The highly experimental operation, which included the first attempt at vaginoplasty, and the resulting publicity drew Lili Elbe to the Institute.

On the page lili elbe is written: In 1930, Elbe went to Germany for sex reassignment surgery, which was highly experimental at the time.

It must have been other publicity that drew Lili Elbe tot the institute in 1930, because the vagino plasty for Dorchen Richter happend in 1931.

145.119.165.117 (talk) 08:20, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't know... it may be referring to her first surgery, years earlier. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 12:50, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

The statement about Elbe isn't especially pertinent to this article, so I've removed it, and added something about Richter's disappearance. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:11, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Gender and Name

WP policy WP:GENDERID specifies that, as a trans woman, female pronouns must be used throughout the article to refer to Richter. As a biographical detail, and to make it clear that she was not given the name Dora at birth, it's appropriate and informative to state her given birth name in the appropriate section of the article. However, MOS:MULTIPLENAMES specifies that because she was not notable under that name, it does not belong in the lede, which should summarize only the most noteworthy facts of the article. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:32, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Ah, you're right. I misinterpreted WP policy with my reverts. I probably mistook the policy on living trans people with the one for historical figures, sorry. —AFreshStart (talk) 14:56, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Actually, there currently is no policy governing when or how to include the non-notable (but verifiable) prior names of deceased Trans people. The last RfC on the topic didn't produce any new guidance on the issue. Newimpartial (talk) 16:06, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Delete the information from 'Attitude'

This article contains information from the source 'attitude.co.uk'. It refers to an article about Dora Richter, written by some Will Stroude. Will Stroude is in no way an authority on the matter of transhistory as far as I can tell from his archive or any information available on him. Please keep this Wikipedia as truthful and scientific as possible. The same for related Wiki's. It's not about telling stories, you are talking about real history. 2001:1C00:2A1B:C100:C14F:8E78:C8D3:292D (talk) 20:13, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

No. Attitude (magazine) is a notable publication, and appears to easily meet WP:RS guidelines. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 21:12, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Reversion of original research tag

Hi Zoolver! Don't worry, I did read the linked references before I added that tag 😊. I added the tag because it's directly linking a primary source for this claim, and neither source cited for this claim argues that this necessarily means that Richter was alive in 1934 or 35, and thus making that claim in the context of these inline citations would constitute original research. The veracity of the Carlotta Baronin von Curtius article I also find possibly questionable in particular, as there are other factual inaccuracies in the timeline she states such as saying that the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft closed in 1935, when in fact it closed in 1933. I think a better source for this claim would be the citation [1]https://lili-elbe.de/blog/2023/04/dora-richter-taufeintrag/ as that is a secondary source which does somewhat make the case claimed in the article, albeit less strongly. Just wanted to tag you here for discussion, hope this clarifies my edit! 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk, contribs) 20:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

"Original research" is an unreferenced claim, not a questionable but sourced one. Maybe you should have used "Better source needed" instead. That article doesn't fit into "primary source" either because it wasn't written by Richter herself, someone else wrote it and it was published in a magazine. It serves mostly to illustrate that Richter didn't die when Hirschfeld's institute was attacked as some articles written in the 2010s claimed, and that she owned a restaurant at some point.

And from the link you suggested:

"Nothing is known about Dora Richter's further whereabouts. As things stand today, we have one last trace with the name change in 1934, but there are still no sources for that date. There is only one statement from Charlotte Charlaque that Dora went to Karlsbad and opened a restaurant there (Wolfert 2021, p. 76)."

The source mentioned on that article is the reference #5 right before Charlaque's article. Zoolver (talk) 22:04, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, I don't think that's a correct interpretation of what means. From WP:NOR, which the tag links to: "This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources." The article's claim based on the inline sources does seem to me like an instance of WP:SYNTH. Also just to clarify, when I said the Carlotta Baronin von Curtius was a primary source, I mean it is a primary source for the claim that she opened a restaurant at some point, and even if I didn't it would still be a primary source as it is a direct witness to Dora's life.

Either way, I think the point is moot as it seems the solution is to add the lile-elbe source as an inline source for this claim? Though it would be nice to have a better source as that source does appear to be a self-published blog per WP:Blog. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 22:13, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Reference #5 is right there. It's a book. That's where the Lili-Elbe-Bibliothek got the claim from. Zoolver (talk) 22:19, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but that book doesn't make the claim that the Carlotta Baronin von Curtius article means that Dora survived the attack on the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft. As far as I can tell, Lili-Elbe-Bibliothek is the only source in the article analyzing the article as such (I think this might be the fundamental source of confusion/disagreement on my part -- I don't think that claim follows directly from the Carlotta Baronin von Curtius article but I can see how someone could). Either way, Lili-Elbe-Bibliothek should serve as a fine source for now, I will go ahead and add that source to the claim with with a tag. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 22:25, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I am the one who found the Czech sources for the name change in 1934 and census in 1939, i.e. Dora survived the attack on the Berlin institute and went back to her small home village. The article in the ONE magazine written by Charlotte Charlaque is not so reliable as Charlotte was somehow vague in her sayings. Nevertheless, Seifen/Ryzovna is not so far from Karlsbad/Karlovy Vary. And maybe Charlotte did'nt want to publish too exact data (maybe for privacy reasons) so she changed the home village (or a small town nearby) to Karlsbad and maybe even the job (Dora was baker by trade, originally). What stays unclear here is whether a) Dora survived after 1939 (there are small evidences for this) and b) if she was deported then in 1946 as most of the Germans there. Lilielbe2020 (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Photos of Dora

Hi all, I'm afraid I don't know how much about how wikipedia editing works so I wanted to raise this issue to those of you who do. There are very few photos of Dora easily accessible online, and I've even seen some people claim that the one from this article is the only photo of her that exists. However, on the page for Toni Ebel, there is an excellent photo of Dora alongside Toni and Charlotte Charlaque. I feel that Dora's page would be benefitted by having that picture and connecting Dora's life to two other noteworthy women at the institute. I should also note that there's another picture of her on the French wikipedia page as well, but I think the group photo is definitely a worthy inclusion. Anyways, I hope someone more wikipedia-savvy can consider this suggestion :-) Thanks for the amazing work you guys do. AnthroKate (talk) 14:53, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

New update as of 6/2/24

Hey all, RBB followed up on the report cited to state that we don't know what happened to her, as of June 2nd 2024, we now DO know what happened to her! Unfortunately for me, the report is in German in which I am only lightly capable, so while I feel capable of reading it for myself I wouldn't want to rely on it too heavily for sourcing but someone fluent in German could do quite a serious update to this page with the help of this article Maeamian (talk) 17:22, 2 June 2024 (UTC)