Talk:Dord (instrument)

Questionable Relevance & Single Source Article

Of the sources provided for this article, only one states that the instrument in question is called a Dord, that being Dirk Schellburg's book on playing the Didgeridoo, which I already find to be a bit of a stretch to use as the singular source for this article. Given that the word "Dord" itself is given to mean "droning" by Wiktionary with a source chain that leads back to a dictionary managed in part by Cambridge University, I find it increasingly probable that a horn described as "dord" was misinterpreted to be an example of a full class of horns. I will be immensely pleased if anyone can provide an academic reference to the "dord", however, I have spent the past several hours searching through chains of references to no avail. What I found to be the most relevant of those sources are given below, for anyone considering retracing my steps.

1. Holmes, Peter, and J.M. Coles. "Prehistoric Brass Instruments."

2. MacWhite, Eoin. "Irish Bronze Age Trumpets."

3. Coles, J.M. "Irish Bronze Age Horns and their relations with Northern Europe."

The first external link provided directly contradicts the page in its current form--no reference to a "dord" exists anywhere in the pages of Treasures of Early Irish Art, despite the fact that a bronze horn or pre-Christian Irish origin is shown on pp. 74-75, with a blurb attached on p. 88. That blurb does not, at any point, refer to the horn as a "dord" nor does it seem to imply that other names for the horn exist. Quite frankly, it looks like the only person calling a horn a dord is Simon O'Dwyer, who is cited as Schellburg's source in his book and whose album is linked as the second external link currently on the page. O'Dwyer's website, Ancient Music Ireland, is also the only place I have been able to find outside of this page that calls such a horn a dord--though that page does not only call the horns "dords", instead naming the two types found at the link provided as a "Dord Ard" and a "Dord Isael".

I am unable to find any sources for the existence of a dord outside of Mr. O'Dwyer's interviews and personal site, and am unsure how an article with only one source has managed to slip by simply by linking to a dead website--a website where a single search of their listing turns up nothing for a "dord". I stumbled across this page while talking to my family about fake words, and am increasingly convinced that, much like its counterpart in the English language, the Irish dord was also born of a mistake. It is also possible that the name is a new development, as my first source is from 1981 and Mr. Schellburg's book was published in 1994. However, I then wonder how it is that essentially no literature has been written that calls such horns "dords" since that 1994 publication, a gap of more than 25 years. A quick search of Google Scholar yields nothing but a discussion of droning singing techniques, and a surprising number of authors with the last name Dord, at least until the author field is excluded from the search.

All joking aside, I think that this article looks a lot like it's calling a spade something other than a spade and trying to source it based on statements made by one man, Simon O'Dwyer, either on his public website, in his albums, or during interviews. Boo99570 (talk) 03:38, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Hiya. FWIW, I have founded and added several other sources (several predating O'Dwyer by a century or more) which refer to this type of horn as a "dord". Including in Bonwick (1880; p.76) and in several discussions on the Fenian Cycle. Including in Lynch (1896, p.188). While there is a danger of over-reliance on sources which excessively rely on (or refer to) O'Dwyer, I'm not sure that its true to say that the article is "based on statements made by one man". To the extent that it warrants total dismissal of the term. And certainly (IMO) wouldn't seem to be grounds for procedural deletion. Guliolopez (talk) 13:44, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I also have come across a few more sources since I put in the deletion request, and have exchanged a few emails with historians on the subject. While I still am unconvinced if the dord itself is significant enough to merit its own page rather than a subsection in an overarching article, I do agree that I was somewhat hasty in entirely dismissing the name as a modern invention. Deletion was my recommendation only due to my personal inability to run down the sources that you have found, as the sourcing for the article in its previous state struck me as tenuous at best; at this point I've spent enough time researching historical Irish Brass instruments that I am quite happy to have been proven wrong and to finally have a few more sources for the origin of this name. Boo99570 (talk) 15:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the double reply, but that Bonwick source is basically what I spent all day yesterday looking for--a published source with a bit of time behind it backing the term. He does also discuss the "dudag", "udgorn", and "stoc" as well as the "dord", though, do you think it is plausible that the individual names are more of a descriptor for a horn, or "Cearn", to once again quote Bonwick, rather than individual names?

As well, when I was looking for sources the other day, I came across a paper by Dr. F. Kelly for the Oxford handbook of Irish Song that discusses "dord fiansa" in the Fenian tales, but I have no access to Oxford Handbooks through my institutional logins. This source could shed additional light on what Bonwick was discussing with the "dord" being a war horn specifically, as it seems to discuss a similar concept in vocal performance; if anyone reading the talk page has access to the article, it could potentially prove useful as a source and help to flesh out the cultural basis for the name of the dord. Boo99570 (talk) 16:09, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

forgot my link to Dr. Kelly's article Boo99570 (talk) 16:11, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello again. As much as I like a good essay myself, I've kinda slipped into TLDR a little. If you're proposing a specific change (deletion/merge/other), I'm not sure what it might be. But in terms of:

• Sources - I don't have access to that Oxfordhandbooks.com source either. I don't think it falls into the scope of WP:WIKILIB. But you could have a look if others do.
• Warrants own article - I'm not sure either. But the fact that the mythical horn, the Dord Fiann (or Dord Fian or Dord Fiansa or variants depending on the source) is covered so extensively in so many sources, there's at least an argument for an article on the "macro" topic.

Happy hunting. Guliolopez (talk) 23:07, 9 July 2022 (UTC)