Talk:Douglas (given name)

Glas

Please see here for details of what Glas means [1], a definitive Gaidhlig dictionary. Glas is part of the name given to the Douglas Water, ie Abhainn Dubh Glas= Black grey stream Abhainn=River, stream, water; Dubh=Black,Dark; Glas Grey, Green, Cyan even. Hence the modern sett of the Grey Douglas Tartan, which originates from the legend of Sholto Douglas. The black stream thing in US, and some of the European name books, referred to is just wrong. Brendandh (talk) 22:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Search "glas steam" in a GoogleBook search. It doesn't seem controversial. Maybe it's a case of an archaic Gaelic word that doesn't occur in modern Scottish Gaelic, and that's why it doesn't appear in a modern Scottish Gaelic dictionary. I looked on an online Irish dictionary and couldn't find it either. The article, and the cited ref doesn't specifically say glas is Scottish Gaelic, so I think that might be the reason, an old word. Here's the etymology of Douglas, Cork from another Oxford published book - "black stream" - dub-glas - black-stream [2]. These aren't the type of sources that are automatically suspect: A Dictionary of First Names, Oxford University Press; Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Pres; A Dictionary of British Place-Names, Oxford University Press. They should be more reliable than the average clan website, Victorian tartan-lore, or new age baby-name book. Here's the etymology given on the Scottish Parliament website, by Iain Mac an Tàilleir "black stream" [3]. This guy ought to know his Gaelic, here's his page on the Sabhal Mòr Ostaig website: [4]. Here's one for Douglas, Isle of Man "black stream", it mentions "black gray" but thinks its improbable [5][6]. If you really want the "steam" bit removed, I suppose someone will have to show that it is erroneous to state that the Gaelic glas can represent the English "stream". If reliable placename and surname/given name etymologists and publications give "stream" so should we.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:08, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Whoops, I clicked enter before i finished my edit summary. I removed your 'where' template because i think you used it incorrectly. The sentence reads: It has sometimes been stated that the given name is connected with the given name Dougal, although it is more likely derived from the surname already mentioned. (You can read the source ref for yourself if you follow the link and search Douglas in the family name section and then Douglas in the given name section of that webpage). This bit isn't about clans or families; it isn't about Freskin or Somerled, like how you mentioned in you edit summary. It just means that the given name Douglas is sometimes said to be connected to the given name Dougal. I think it means like how Brendan and Brandon are sometimes thought to be the same name. I imagine it is something like how people with the surname MacDougal may have the given name Doug, and the real reason they were so-named isn't because it's a short form of Douglas, but because it seems like a short form of Dougal. Something like that.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:22, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I missed this one: [7]. It says it's from Old Gaelic dub + glais, "black stream".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I just came across this web page on Manx place-names and remembered this article [8]. George Broderick states:

"Douglas, G. Dubhghlais, probably PCelt. *dubros ‘water’, W. dwfr, w. G. glas, glais(e), W. glais ‘water, stream’, a name frequently found in the western areas of the British Isles, particularly in Ireland, Scotland and western England. In Wales it appears as Dulas and in Southwest England as Dawlish, Dowles, Dowlish, Develish, etc.

It's interesting because he's got a completely different take on the dubh part.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 11:26, 6 February 2011 (UTC)