Talk:Drastamat Kanayan

Old talk

This page has zero, ie zero documentation. I suggest whoever started it should put up a few footnotes or whatever!

Why in the world does it state that Kanyan lead the Dashnaks? The Armenian Dashnak party was based in Egypt and had strongly proclaimed their allegiance to the Allied powers and denounced the Axis. There needs to be a severe overhaul in editing this page.--MarshallBagramyan 19:16, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

hmmm yes I recently readed about this subject in a german newspaper, I will try to find it asap

That large chunky quote on Kanayan by Walker has to be removed and at least summarized into the article.--MarshallBagramyan 01:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

"Dro became a popular military leader after the victories over the Turkish in 1918." should be corrected. Replace "Turkish" with "Ottomans". Turks, as Armenians, were an ethnic population within the Ottoman land where many more etnicities co-existed. Dro, himself, was an Ottoman citizen while revolting against the Ottomans. Turkey was later established as a state in October 1923.

Dro is claimed to organize a widespread genocide against the Azeri and the Turkish populations in the region (http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history/en/getHistory.cgi?4=1=info=4=Dro,%20Drastamat%20Kanayan=1=3=D) Erhan Berber

From “ARMENIA: The Survival of a Nation”, revised second edition © 1990 Christopher J. Walker

DRO (Drastamat Kanayan) (Igdir 1884 – Boston 1956) Educated Yerevan Gymnasium. Attended military school. Joined Dashnak party. Very active in 1903–5; with others assassinated Prince Nakashidze and General Alikhanov; fought the Tatars in Zangezur. Fled to Turkey after proclamation of constitution in 1908. Returned to Transcaucasia in 1914; one of the commanders of the volunteer units. Wounded; decorated by the tsar. In 1917 appointed by the Armenian National Council military commissar of the Ararat region. Defended the Bash Abaran defile during the battle of Sardarabad, May 1918. With Aram organised the dictatorship of Armenia until the government arrived in July 1918. Commander of the front during Armeno–Georgian war, December 1918. In early and mid-1920 commander of the Surmalu front. Minister of war in Vratsian's government, November 1920. When H. Terterian signed agreement on hand-over of power to Bolsheviks. Became dictator of Armenia until arrival of Soviet forces. To Moscow 1921; received amicably by Stalin. Later to Paris; settled in Romania. Co-operated with the Nazis on the Crimean and north Caucasian fronts during the second world war, commanding an Armenian battalion; supporters claim that this was to ensure the survival of Armenians, should the Nazis reach Armenia; opponents claim that he acted out of Nazi sympathies. Arrested at Heidelberg by the Americans at the end of the war; released after one month as an 'old exile'. Settled in Lebanon, making frequent trips to Egypt, Europe and the USA. To America for medical treatment in December 1955; died in Boston 8 March 1956.

John Stevens

Your comments and manner of your speech insult my intellegence. First you deny the armenian genocide, and then claim general dro commited genocide against turks ... come now ... : )))

You misspelled intelligence.

What people such as myself are saying is not that no Armenians died. Obviously, we'll never know how many died exactly. But it was sure a hell of a lot. BUT, it was a hell of a lot ON BOTH SIDES. I added a sentence speaking of Dro's massacre of Turkish citizens following the sentence that speaks of his military successes in WW1 which characterize his work as "defense". Which is accurate but dishonest. But, it's only a half-truth! Dro took actions (i.e. massacred) non-combatants. How does one defend against a non-combatant? One doesn't. Hence, it was a half-truth. Now it's a whole-truth.

Extend that problem to the whole subject, and you'll see the general problem informed people on "the other side" of this argument take: saying "a genocide of Armenians took place", and leaving it at that, isn't honest because it's only a half-truth That's enough to paint the picture of what happened to the Jews, but not to the Armenians. We're saying "there was no genocide" not like people deny the Holocaust deny the deaths of the Jews, but we say there was no genocide because that term evokes, for most people, an image of one side massacring peaceful people out of hate. (I don't actually say "there was no genocide" because of the misunderstanding it causes. Instead, I say "if there was one genocide, there was two, or if there wasn't two genocides, there was one genocide and an equally horrific slaughter of innocent Turks, or better yet there were equally horrific massacres of both sides.") The Armenians were rebelling. The Armenians massacred Turks in huge numbers, also, and along with the Russians employed the same tactics as the Ottomans, namely that of displacing populations, with or without the Russians, and massacring. Dro was notorious for this, and non-Turkish sources back this up. He wouldn't be a war hero if he hadn't killed lots of people, that's what war heroes do, sadly. And to deny he killed large numbers of non-combatants is to wear blinders. That, also, is what war heroes have tended to do throughout history.

I also wrote of Dro's (terribly ironic given the genocide issue) complicity in the Holocaust. It's established that he fought for the Nazis, and it's also established that the anti-Jewish goals of the Nazis were well known.

In sum, people who say the thing you believe "insults your intelligence" usually mean that either 2 genocides took place or 0. But not 1. The type of "deniers" who I am more or less in agreement with are often not disputing your statements but instead disputing the honesty and validity of neglecting to mention the statements you leave out, and the claim at every turn that the massacres of Turks were "justified" and therefore do not count as "real" massacres, somehow. (This is not surprising, given the kinds of racism I've been subject to on the Internet. People who claim to be arbiters of the truth on the genocide matter have told me that Turks are not humans. [Read below.] I assume they felt that way before they'd completed their research -- how could they have done their research and draw their conclusions in an unbiased way? There's no way such a racist and hateful thought could reside in a human mind which is capable of rendering the about that which inspires their hate.)

And, I'm glad you could put a smiley face on the end of your sentence.

This is not a laughing matter, but it is refreshing to see an absence of terrible venom! Attacking manner of "speech" (although I assume the gentlemen was actually writing), however, seems pretty racist. All of us would be subject to the hatred of local racists for our failure to master the local language if we were to live in a foreign country. We shouldn't treat people like on the Internet, just as we shouldn't when they visit our country.

I don't do that to those who argue the "Armenian position" (and the position of those who agree with the Armenians), except when I find spelling, grammatical, or logical errors in their put-downs of people who take the "Turkish position" (and those who agree with the Turks). Even then, I only point out their errors (as I did above). I don't speculate as to whether or not their innate value is equivalent to that of dogs or other humans, which is something Turks are frequently subjected to on the Internet. Please treat us like humans.

And, yes, it would be a laughing matter if someone were to claim the Turks (and Kurds) suffered genocide but the Armenians didn't. However, "we" also feel that it would be a "laughing matter" (not too funny, though...) if people claimed only the Armenians suffered a genocide without using the same term, or a term that evokes something equally heinous, to describe what happened to the Turks at the hands of the Armenians. I don't think genocide is a good term, at least not now, because of the confusion raised by putting people like myself in the camp of "deniers", although in no way do I deny the Armenians suffered terribly. I just believe that the massacres committed by Armenians make the use of the term genocide misleading.

Some people say, "So what are you saying? That the Armenians deserved to be slaughtered because they fought for freedom?" No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that a massacre is a massacre, and that it's not fitting to leave it out of history just because you think the people who committed it deserved to rule themselves!

For my part, I believe genocide is not a proper word to describe what happened to either side, for a variety of reasons, including the evocation of the Holocaust with the word. That's simply not appropriate when describing a two-way slaughter.

To all the Armenians on this page:

(Note: This is preemptive, and I don't mean to imply an accusation of hate and racism. If it doesn't apply to you, it's not addressed to you. But believe me, I get it all the time.) I have no interest in hateful argument, although I'll engage in respectful argument. As you can probably tell, I don't have a position which involves hatred of Armenians, nor "denial" of the deaths, nor justification of the deaths. My position is simply that a comprehensive telling of the history includes the fact that equally terrible crimes were committed on both sides. So, if you have a problem with my edits, please cite something that contradicts them, but don't tell me I'm an "animal" or "non-human" or any other racist comments. Moving on...

I hope we can all be colleagues in improving Wikipedia, regardless of our views or race.

I wrote this giant thing in the hopes that it will compel people to be serious and honest, and unbiased, instead of removing my extremely important additions to this page. (That is, I didn't put them here to mislead people, or fan the flames of racism against Armenians. I put them here to improve the ability of Wikipedia to inform people as to the truth about the role a single man played in the history of the world, including the fact that he slaughtered innocents and supported the Nazi agenda, albeit as a means to pursue interests of his people rather than as an end in itself. For what it's worth...)

The man was a soldier. The life of a soldier isn't always pretty. We must be truthful about this. Or, if you want to remove this, you should be able to convince me I'm wrong, and my sources are wrong. (Or provide me with sources that will convince me.)

Because to say that one of the top Armenian-Russo conspirators against the Ottomans did not engage in the killings of non-combatants would be very suspect, as the slaughters of Turks by the Russians and all who fought on their side (i.e. Armenians) are well-documented. (Just as the slaughter of Armenians is well-documented.)

And, very importantly, I hope we can all alter our views to reflect truth REGARDLESS of our races! That's what I've tried to do: my ethnicity brought me to research this subject, but my love of truth has brought me to mourn both the Armenian and Turkish losses of life, and to conclude that neither side is all villain or victim. In fact, I've concluded that both sides were quite bad, and distinguishing an ordinal relationship between their crimes is impossible. And the only villains who remain are those who lie or hate today... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.70.65 (talk) 18:57, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Armenian Genocide

About in the beginning of the biography section a line reads as following: During the Armenian Genocide Dro fought off Turkish and Azeri aggression against Armenian civilians. Azerbaijan and Azeris had nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide, so this line is not correct as it also accused Azerbaijan for committing the Armenian Genocide. I removed the Azeri sentence. Baku87 18:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem.--Eupator 18:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Turkleri ve Azeri are the ones who maintain this page...

... hence the anti-armenian propaganda backed by botched up sources of reference they create themselves. This article is a good example of how credible and impartial this so-called idea of Wikipedia is.

I agree, we should maintain friendly relations with Turks and Azeris but we shouldn't let them rewrite Armenian history. The Armenian editors here should be ashamed, they are the ones giving Turks and Azeris the power to try to eliminate Armenians from the face of the Earth. First through eliminating and eradicating Armenian History from all textbooks, websites, and etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.174.192.171 (talk) 04:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Number of troops

I'm gonna remove the number "200 000" for the 812th batallion because it simply goes beyond any logic. A battalion is the size of about 200-600 men tops. 200,000 soldiers would be enough to equip 20 divisions and Armenians could have conquered Moscow by 1942 if there really were that many. I hope the logic behind the removal is understood. For more information, see Armenian Legion talk page. - Fedayee 04:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Not for the 812th battalion,sorry.

The number 200 000-is numer of Armenians generally serving to Wehrmacht and SS

Section on Early life.

I re-organized the Early Life section as it had some inconsistencies. Also did a general cleaup of the sources used. I'll be trying to find time to concentrate a little more on this article to improve the other sections and in general. - Fedayee 01:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

OttomanRef, I excluded what you just added because he did not join the ARF then. The youth movement he joined were various students who had joined together to resist the Czar's attempts to eliminate Armenian from the school curriculum, as a policy of Russification. He officially joined the Dashnaks after the church edict order. - Fedayee 01:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. One point. ARF in Russia began as a various student activity. That is a cited info. Given the fact that I'm not expert on the history of ARF in Russia (currently 100 years of history); At the period when Kanayan (1) "was member of global ARF (Russia-Ottoman-Persia)" (2) "he and his friends become the ARF" of their region is very amorphous. That is really the root of your argument. It is Kanayan and his friends (various students) gave the life to the organization by turning the ideologies developed in Europe and Ottoman Empire into actions. I will not reject you, but I believe the distinction is not as clear as you think and my interpretation seems closer to reality. Thanks again. --OttomanReference 01:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks and hope the last edit would cover your point. --OttomanReference 01:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

What I am referring to is his actual, official joining of the ARF as an activist or member. But it is true that he, alongside other students, were encouraged by Andranik and the ARF's role in the empires. So I suggest this edit in order to make the distinction between him being inspired by it and his official membership/activism in the organization: Inspired by stories of General Andranik's triumphs in the Ottoman Empire and the spread of nationalism by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Drastamat joined a secret youth movement in his school that opposed the Czar's government and promoted Armenian nationalism. - Fedayee 04:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

If you believe that reflects the point, that is fine with me. However One note: the secret youth movement in the text refers to ARF (or in couple years later will be). I bet (without evidence) every member in that group followed the same foot steps. Thanks. --OttomanReference 17:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Alright, it essentially says that they were being highly influenced by the ARF and its ideologies. - Fedayee 23:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources

Denizz that website not only denies the genocide but also denies that there was massacre of Armenians. It futures an article from Weems etc... I'm currently checking the reliability of the rest of the sources provided by the IP. VartanM 17:57, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

It lists its sources, and pretty much everything seems to be sourced. That gave me the impression of reliability. But I can't read French, don't know about other content. Deniz^T_C 21:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

In addition to this, I removed the other source added by the IP. While doing a simple google search for it [1], all that came out were a Wikipedia link and 3 revisionist sites (among them the hate site, tallarmeniantale.com and another that claims 2.5 million Muslims killed by Armenians with a typo as a title). - Fedayee 02:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Tall Armenian Tale isn't a hate site. <Actually hears the sound of people leaping down throat.> Seriously. Couldn't the Wikipedia pages about the genocide accurately be called "Tall Turkish Tale", as they deny Armenians committed atrocities as the Turks contend, and they accuse the Turkish government of planning a genocide, which the Turks deny? Yet, is it a hate site? Just because you think he's wrong, couldn't he be genuinely mislead, and put up a page which claims the "Armenian" version is misleading, without hating Armenians, just as you can post material that says the Turks' version of events is wrong, without hating Turks? See?

Think it over one more time. Of course, it could be a hate site, but it doesn't espouse hate, not for a moment. It's clearly passionately written, but if there's any hate, it's hate towards the Armenian-version of events, not Armenians. And I see the same hate, only against the Turkish-version of events, in source upon source, including in "academic" works which use words like "butcher" to describe Turks -- sources which are never contested on Wikipedia. The site is actually compelling, especially if you bother to dig into the original sources. It admits the tragic death of many Armenians, men, women, and children, unjustified deaths. One has to read both sides -- I've found Armenapedia cited on Wikipedia, and I don't doubt that some of the work is OK. (An encyclopedia shouldn't cite an encyclopedia, but it saves them from going back and listing all the ref's on Armenapedia, I suppose.) Tall Armenian Tale is actually really well done in terms of logical consistency, and using others work to make your argument, and very thoroughly sourced, and I found no hate, just a point of view that Armenians hate. And it's enormous, too. It's not some slopped together piece of opinion without citations. And the bias in his writing is at the level -- and I must be honest here -- of the Armenian Genocide Wikipedia page, which takes every opportunity to make Turks look bad. (Take a look at the talk page for the misattribution, of a quote which is nowhere near relevant enough to be on the main page, which was clearly intended to make Turks look bad. It's currently the most recently added post.) I mean, he's not coming in with 250,000 dead and stuff like that. He printed all the figures from decent sources... I dunno. It's not a hate site -- don't confuse hate with disagreement.

And, as you saw above, one can disagree without hating.

However, it does also tell about the nastiness Armenians have engaged in. And I believe that Armenians also massacred at that time. But the point is his sources can be trusted. His contention is that one ethnic group speaking about another group's dirty laundry, without mentioning their own, amounts to a Tall Tale, especially when we're talking about such a serious matter.

I've been made aware, however, that the people editing these pages who seem to think no Armenian has ever done anything wrong, or especially anything unjustified during the history of the Ottoman Empire and World War 1 (even when they formed admittedly terrorist groups like the Armenian-revered Dashnaks and Hunchaks). But that's not the point... I just had to say that. If you actually read Tall Armenian Tale, you'll have to disregard all the people he quotes, not the author. Because the entire case he makes can be made in the words of mostly Armenians with help from a few Westerners, none of whom had any reason to like the Turks. Brittish? Russians? In 1920? Biased in favor of Turks? Ha! Anyhow...

Here's the point: THAT BOOK IS OUT OF PRINT! DO YOU SEE WHEN IT WAS PRINTED?? WHY WOULD YOU EXPECT TO SEE SO MANY REFERENCES TO IT ON GOOGLE? DO YOU KNOW HOW GOOGLE SEARCHES FOR MULTI-WORD "QUOTED TEXT"? It's not likely to come up, even if it was on a fair number of other sites.

Based on that author's record of giving correct citations, and accurate quotes (with a few misspelled transcriptions, albeit) I do not doubt that the book says what it says. You may doubt the *book's* author, but it wasn't written by a Turk! Every time the source of a quote is not certain -- if he hasn't seen the book himself, or if it's from a website and that's the only source he's found, etc., etc. -- he notes it.

So, just because he holds a view which differs from yours -- which is basically on two counts, as I'm assuming a "standard Armenian" position for your viewpoint, excuse me if I'm wrong -- is that 1) Armenians also killed lots of Turks, with and without the Russians, and were responsible for even more deaths due to population displacement, and that the Armenian agitation for a state was the reason the Turks engaged in unjustified massacres (just as the Armenian massacres of Turks were unjustified) AND 2) that the evidence that the Ottoman "government" was intending to wipe out the Armenians is not credible, e.g. Andonian papers, etc.

Anyhow, the website is good, and its sources have always checked out. Besides Dro *volunteered* to fight with the Nazis, that's indisputable, and do you really believe that Dro didn't kill Turkish civilians? That's what those soldiers were doing. You don't need sources to know that, but the source, if you bothered to read the excerpts posted on the net, backs it up.

You should revert the contribution that Dro contributed to the Nazis plans for Holocaust, and according to some sources developed a particular reputation as "Jew Killer". The source for that is not certain, however. But his activities during WW2 are documented, and are as I posted, although I don't know if I had a source for that.

Revert the part about Dro's massacres of Turkish civilians, or respond as to why you refuse to trust a source that's proven reliable to an obviously capable and open mind. And don't tell me it's not OK because it wears its position on its sleeve. As I said, Wikipedia could be called "Tall Turkish Tale", because it, (almost explicitly) implicitly says that the "Turkish position" (and that of many historians and others) is that, for the reason (1 and 2) given above, it's not successfully communicative to say genocide, unless you note the atrocities against Turks by Armenians (and other Christians during the time for that matter) during the time.

The source is good.

And, if you refuse to accept this, tell me if I can show you a scan of the pages, will you accept *that*? You can make it clear in the article that this is simply what this book says. That's totally fair. But, it's a serious, relevant (and very much plausible) piece of Dro's history. Call it purported history. But the fact that someone purports it -- and it wasn't a Turkish government publication, or even from a Turk, as (local bias) means that's no good -- should be noted.

Regards.

--24.5.70.65 03:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The author is not given, but after a google search it seems to be Robert Dunn, don't know which Dunn he is, maybe Robert Dunn (novelist). This is the book, don't bother with the google searches. It seems to be a primary source, it should be fine if we list the actual quote, so that there is no suspicion of modifying it (initially I thought we could not use primary sources, but later I found out that we just need to be careful, and also not rely completely on primary sources). So, it should be wiki-fine. Deniz^T_C 04:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Found this as well: "Dunn trained as a newspaper reporter under Lincoln Steffans, and was a correspondent in five wars. He also spent 20 years in Naval Intelligence, and was a well-known mountain climber." Reliable. Deniz^T_C 04:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

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Issue regarding listing of allegiance (excludes nazi germany)

All SS members pledged allegiance to hitler and the nazi party. It would be appropriate to acknowledge his allegiance as he was a commander of an ss battalion. Even if the conditions of the camps were harsh he still chose to fight for the nazis and wrote much in praise regarding the ideology. 92.40.196.116 (talk) 03:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

That part of the infobox was removed without explanation. I will re-add once I check what year exactly his association with Nazi Germany began. Revolution Saga (talk) 05:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I believe that his year of official association with the national socialist party in Germany began in 1941 however it is more than likely that he had sympathies for the movement predating the relevant annum 92.40.196.70 (talk) 17:07, 3 April 2024 (UTC)