Talk:Driving licence in the United Kingdom

Merge here of UK driving licence codes

I propose that the 'UK driving licence codes' article be merged into this article. The codes are for the licence, is there any good reason to keep them in a separate article? -- de Facto (talk). 13:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I merged it. -- de Facto (talk). 14:51, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be "GB driving licence codes" in line with ISO 3166-1 alpha-2? Referring to the United Kingdom as "UK" is only done by the European Union. Chaz6 (talk) 12:30, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure what you are saying. United Kingdom is England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Great Britain is an island containing the countries of Scotland, Wales and England. Are you saying that the codes in the table do not apply in Northern Ireland? --TimTay (talk) 16:36, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

To add confusion, GB is also the ISO country code that represents the United Kingdom (i.e. including Northern Ireland). --77.58.251.138 (talk) 19:53, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

No, I am saying that the international country code for The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is defined by the International Standards Organization as "GB" and not "UK". Please see [[1]] for more information about this. Chaz6 (talk) 15:04, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

B (Automatic) category

This is some what confusing. I have just phones the DVLA and there is no sepperate catagory of B (Automatic). A licence refereed to as an automatic licence is a category B licence with a restriction to automatic transmission cars. This explains why B (Automatic) is not listed as a category for European driving, see http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/driving/validity/tourist_en.htm. This should be made more clear in the article. see also http://www.thehappybiker.co.uk/pdf-files/INF245%20Veh%20Categories%20on%20DLs.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.179.6.216 (talk) 09:09, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

That would be a category B with a code 78. Astronomy Explained (talk) 15:58, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Endorsement codes

Neither here nor anywhere else seems to list endorsement codes and their meanings. Can anybody help with this ? 212.159.12.230 (talk) 19:09, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The information you need is at https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endorsements/endorsement-codes-and-penalty-points Astronomy Explained (talk) 15:58, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Moorland?

"but it is illegal - regardless of any licence - to drive on any common public land, such as moorland.[2]" - Moorland isn't necessarily public common land, and I don't see why you shouldn't be able to drive on privately-owned moorland with the owner's permission. Now I know the reference mentions moorland, but I suspect that it's badly-worded. Can someone clarify if this is true? The same thing applies to footpaths and bridleways (it must be legal to drive on a bridleway if you own it - there's one going through my parents' drive, and I presume it's legal for them to drive onto their drive!) Riedquat (talk) 20:43, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

The operative word in the act is "common" which applies to "land, moorland or land of any other description, not being land forming part of a road" which is intended to refer to land belonging to the Crown to which the public have access. The purpose of the legislation is to protect any public who may be crossing such land from danger from motor vehicles which they would not reasonably expect to be using such land. The definition of "moorland" does include "unenclosed". The wording of an Act of Parliament is carefully considered, approved by both houses of parliament and therefore considered sacrosanct, so only the courts may interpret this. Of course, private land is exempt providing the public do not have access. The subsection referring to a "road" is defined elsewhere in the Act with reference to a "highway". Any "private bridleway" or private land is not, by definition, a "highway". I wouldn't worry about the bridleway going across a drive as the Act specifies exemptions including proximity to a road etc. If the meaning must be made more clear, feel free to add the word "public" or similar somewhere, but I feel the sentence reasonably describes the relevant section of the Act as is. It wouldn't be in the public interest to mislead readers into believing that it is acceptable to drive onto moorland willy nilly in the belief it may be private. --Driverdude (talk) 16:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

can i drive in uk if i have internationl licence (issu in india)

can i drive in uk? if ihave internationl licence (issu by indian gov.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daiwikgm (talk • contribs) 08:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

You'll need to look at https://www.gov.uk/exchange-foreign-driving-licence to find that. Astronomy Explained (talk) 15:58, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Driving Ages Depending On Category

Many of the heavier cat of vehicles, i.e. D, DE, C, CE have a driving age of 21. The exception being that: You can drive these vehicles at age 18 if one of the following apply:

• you have passed your driving test and Driver CPC initial qualification
• you are learning to drive or taking a driving test for this category or Driver CPC initial qualification
• you are taking a national vocational training course to get a Driver CPC initial qualification
• you had your driving licence before 10 September 2009 - you must take the CPC periodic training within five years of this date

Or 17 if you are in the armed forces. Maybe the article should be updated to reflect this? The above information can be confirmed on the Direct.Gov website and/or the DVLA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.219.142.192 (talk) 19:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Images

Would be nice to have:

• The counterpart (old style and new style)
• The old red book
• Some endorsements.

Rich Farmbrough, 10:55, 31 March 2011 (UTC).

Endorsements - I have lots of those on mine. Good idea thought to post the rest. I had a quick look on the European Union website and the paper counterpart isn't shown. --Biker Biker (talk) 12:15, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Endorsements are at List of UK driving licence endorsements.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   15:11, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• I have a paper license - pre 1998. Though my original green paper one was replaced by a green and pink one in the 90s and I doubt if I have a copy. Happy to upload an anonymised version. But I'm not sure of the copyright status - is the actual document crown copyright? ϢereSpielChequers 21:17, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but I think a suitably edited version of an old one would be covered by "fair use and research" - although proper legal advice may be helpful. Astronomy Explained (talk) 15:58, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Crown copyright may also apply. Probably not safe to load on Commons but I'm sure there would be no problem on wikipedia as long as it was in use here. I must remember to ask at the London meetup ϢereSpielChequers 18:08, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Driving licence in Australia#Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. --202.28.181.200 (talk) 02:32, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The Queen

Interesting point about her not needing a licence, but maybe a better source required. Also assuming she didn't need a licence perhaps she has (or had one anyway) for example perhaps she was issued one when she served in the Armed Forces during the war when she wasn't the Queen, especially given that she was in fact a motor mechanic by trade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.153.119.73 (talk) 00:45, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

The British armed forces have a permit system and general testing was suspended during WW2, so HM probably never took one. Licences are issued by the Secretary of State for Transport in her name, under the same historical precedents that passports are. She doesn't need one of those, either. Astronomy Explained (talk) 15:58, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

In order for a licence for anything to be issued, someone has to have the privilege of doing whatever function we are talking about. In this case the Queen, or now the King, has the privilege of driving a motor vehicle (and thus does not require a licence). Us mere mortals require a licence issued by the King to infringe on his privilege (actually issued by the DVLA on his behalf).

HM forces' drivers are issued with a different style of licence indicating their entitlement to drive vehicles that are exempt from vehicle excise duty under the Road Traffic Acts (basically: official vehicles owned by any government department). This used to be a specific vehicle group on the old style red book licence (in that the holder cold not drive such vehicles). The licence for exempt vehicles was for many years similar to the red book licence but having a blue cover instead. It is now similar to the standard driving licence but issued by the government department involved (though valid for vehicles from any department). 86.164.61.82 (talk) 15:26, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Having a full licence and passing a driving test are different things. For example my father, who was born well before Queen Elizabeth II, never passed a driving test but had a full licence until he died in 2003 because he got the licence before driving tests were introduced. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:05, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

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Missing category M and historic information

I'm only here from googling what categories L and M actually cover, as they're mentioned on the uk.gov site as still valid codes, but they don't go into any more detail than "electric vehicles" and "trolley vehicles" (with N being "vehicles exempt from registration" (taxation?) or something like that).

Now from what's written in the article, I expect L was for old style limited range low speed electric service vehicles like milk floats and the like, which were little more than horse carts with a traction motor, batteries and a steering wheel, designed for frequent stop start use to save a milkman or other such worker with a heavy load and a neighbourhood round from having to either push or pedal it all around, or use a horse, without producing much noise or exhaust. The license category therefore reflecting the low likelihood of a serious collision due to the low top speed (20mph downhill if you're lucky), minimal road miles (a route might be 15 miles all up including the run to and from the depot) and flimsy construction, as well as the fairly minimal instruction and testing needed to get the license itself...

That's all conjecture however, so it'd be nice if there were even just a few words to confirm or deny.

As for trolley vehicles... Are we talking trams/streetcars/metros, trolleybuses, or something else entirely? Surely their operators still need some kind of license, unless the likely railway operator licence is deemed to act as superior to a road vehicle one even though the tram might spend a lot of time sharing roadway space with other vehicles? It's not even on this list at all, it jumps straight from L to N...

Any help here?

PS the towing categories are a little out of date I think? Hasn't B+E now been superceded by BE which is slightly more restrictive (ie trailer weight now limited to 3.5t instead of being unlimited, which was a bit of a dangerous loophole to be honest, albeit one that was fairly irrelevant as it's unlikely there are many sub 3.5t vehicles or tractor units rated for towing anything more than their own weight, or even 85% of it)?? 46.208.118.176 (talk) 01:06, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Competency tests

The statement that "Competency tests were introduced in 1934 by the Motor Vehicles Regulations 1935" cannot be true. Can someone correct the years? - BobKilcoyne (talk) 04:54, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Apparently it's true, "Motor Vehicles Regulations 1935 saw the introduction of driving competency tests for all persons who commenced driving on or after 1 April 1934." Yannaynay (talk) 15:07, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

My grandfather obtained an "All Groups" licence in 1931 simply by writing to the local licensing office and asking for it. Astronomy Explained (talk) 15:58, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

References

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Spelling

Information about spelling, removed from the article for reasons stated in this edit summary, but probably useful as guidance to editors.

---

Some confusion surrounds the British spelling of licence, which is derived from the Latin licentia, and the associated variations thereof. Licence is the only acceptable spelling of the document (noun), but verbal forms of the word are spelled with an "s". Licensed is used for the state of holding a licence, licensing is the correct form for the process of issuing or obtaining a licence, and licensee for a person holding a licence (although 'driving licence holder' is the term generally used in this context). In the American orthography, all variants are of the c and subsequent s form.

---

--Money money tickle parsnip (talk) 02:56, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

References

New design for 2021

The UK goverement has published the new design for the UK driving license.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-style-driving-licences-and-number-plates-mark-one-year-anniversary-of-brexit-as-eu-flag-is-removed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roof674975 (talk • contribs) 13:34, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Are electric cars categorised as "automatic" for the driving licence categories ?

Are electric cars categorised as "automatic" for the driving licence categories ? There is no mention of this important point, and I have search the linked government website, but cannot find any information. Darkman101 (talk) 00:37, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

All electric cars are automatic. So yes, you would be given an automatic-only license if you take the test in an electric car. (Because it has automatic transmission.) 2A02:C7C:F452:8C00:6C8C:B392:7489:2F5D (talk) 16:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I would say they would be since there is no clutch pedal. Slender (talk) 09:42, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Licence Issue Number

“which increases by 1 for each licence issued”

may be true but is incomplete. My current paper licence valid from 1976 when my last local authority licence expired but issued when I last changed address in 1987 does not have an issue number on it. It will be my second DVLA issue, the first being in 1976. I probably had three local authority issued licences before then.

The online version says “Licence issue number 92”. Why 92? It could be that 9 indicates that I had a local authority licence before DVLA and 2 that my current licence is the second DVLA issue – but I’m only guessing. It could equally be that the 9 just indicates that I have an old paper licence.

Googling this only lead to several forums with other people asking this question. [2] [3] [4] 84.67.166.203 (talk) 16:11, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

DVLA Document INS57P (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1087046/ins57p-information-on-driving-licences.pdf) states "This is the licence issue number which will increase by one with every licence issued." However this does not explain why my licence has an issue number of 31. I definitely have not had 30 previous licences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.15.133.130 (talk) 10:07, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect statement about 10 year renewal

As the article makes clear later on, renewal is only required at age 70. 146.199.98.92 (talk) 18:54, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Article title

This article is not about [a single] driving licence, but about driving licences in the plural, so it should be renamed. Do editors have any preference about whether Driving licences in the United Kingdom or Driving licensing in the United Kingdom would be their preferred article title? BobKilcoyne (talk) 13:44, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

If about the licences then it would be "Driving licences in the United Kingdom", if about the process of or mechanism for licensing people to drive then "Driver licensing in the United Kingdom", and in no case "Driving licensing in the United Kingdom". But in fact I oppose any change, as the "head article" as it were is at Driver's license in the singular, and I think that is the norm for this sort of thing. DuncanHill (talk) 14:24, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by the sentence "the norm for this sort of thing".

I agree that where possible, Wikipedia avoids plurals in titles, but I think that "driving licence in the United Kingdom" feels wrong.

I think that other wikipedians have made similar decisions in the past (although that's not necessarily relevant):

Dog vs Dogs in religion

Musician vs Musicians in Ming China

Animal vs Animals in Islam

Driver's license vs Driver's licenses in the United States

The last one might not be as relevant as you might expect from the title. The discussion on the talk page from when they renamed it that seems to argue "getting a licence in different parts of America is different", and that's not what I'm arguing here.

If you could cite a specific policy, that would be cool. I guess it would be WP:SINGULAR. I think this falls under the exceptions to that. I don't mean that it's explicitly mentioned at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (plurals), but that it lies in a similar vein to the types of exception listed there.

If someone wants to find some examples of the opposite happening (i.e. a pair of pages, one for (countable noun sing.), the other for (same noun pl. in XYZ) or similar), that would also be cool, I guess. I didn't find any examples, but I also didn't look hard enough that I believe they don't exist.

Retro.sort (talk) 21:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

"Driving licences in the United Kingdom" is what I would go for. Retro.sort (talk) 21:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe that the current title is correct. The words "in the United Kingdom" are simply there to categorise the topic into a defined geopolitical area. If Wikipedia was UK only, there would be no issue with an article titled "Driving licence". So "Driving licence" in the singular matches all other articles about a singluar definable subject that occurs in multiple eaxamples . Tree, Saucepan and many many others follow this convention where very many vaieties exist but all share the same singlar type.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   15:55, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

History: What exactly happened between 1973-1976?

The article currently says:

> Until 1974, driving licences (and tax discs) were issued by local authorities and had to be renewed every three years.

But I'm finding conflicting/confusing information when cross-referencing this with other sources.

For example, here it says "Full licences become valid until the age of 70 from 1 January 1976.", and here it says "Valid 'red book' driving licence records held by Local Taxation Offices were progressively transferred to the DVLA between 1 November 1973 and 31 October 1976." 2A02:C7C:F452:8C00:6C8C:B392:7489:2F5D (talk) 16:52, 22 August 2024 (UTC)