Talk:Du Hirte Israel, höre, BWV 104

Reference formatting

I have restored the referencing format used by Gerda Arendt, the article's creator and sole contributor of the content and all but one of references. The later reversion of her formatting citing WP:CITEVAR was not remotely supported by the contents of that page which refers to the formatting and layout of the individual reference content. There is absolutely no way in which Gerda's formatting of her original references by using the List parameter of {{Reflist}} changed the way the content of each reference was laid out in the original version, not did it switch between referencing styles nor did change the style and layout of the one reference added by another contributor. In addition to that, it is, in my view, a preferable way to format and greatly facilitates any future changes to the text. Voceditenore (talk) 13:36, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:38, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

You are incorrect in your interpretation of CITEVAR, as changes to the way references are presented in editing are still changes. Nevertheless, let's leave it. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:56, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Nikki -- if you really believe that the above interpretation of CITEVAR is incorrect, then the proper place for you to discuss that would be at CITEVAR's talkpage. With mention here that you are doing so. The issue is less article-specific, than CITEVAR-specific. If, however, you believe you made a mistake in your above statement, it's probably best for you to drop it. Epeefleche (talk) 22:21, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The general issue has already been discussed at that page, where consensus was that switching to LDR from another established style is in fact a CITEVAR issue. The specific application of that issue to this article is appropriately discussed here, but as I've said, "let's leave it". Nikkimaria (talk) 00:45, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Please provide a link to that discussion that reflected a consensus. It would inform us. And consensus can change -- perhaps it bears revisiting and/or clarification, if it is precisely as you say. Epeefleche (talk) 00:51, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources/Archive_35#Using_list-defined_references. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:19, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Du Hirte Israel, höre, BWV 104/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Gerda Arendt (talk · contribs) 21:38, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: MyCatIsAChonk (talk · contribs) 21:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Will review MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 21:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Need sleep first. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

All the comments are in when you are ready- thanks! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:23, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	*In the infobox and prose, link taille and oboe d'amour- I've never heard of the former and the latter is likely also unknown to the general reader The prescribed readings for that Sunday were from the First Epistle of Peter, Christ as a model - with christ as a model? What's he being the model of? The writer of the cantata text is unknown. He found - its likely that a man wrote the libretto, but should a male pronoun still be used? "The librettist" or just "they" would be more neutral In the second recitative, he deduced - I'm not sure deduced is the right word here. He figured it out? Perhaps "included" or "wrote" "for faith's reward after a gentle sleep of death" (John 10:11–16, des Glaubens Lohn nach einem sanften Todesschlafe) - could be my lack of liturgical knowledge, but why is there german in the parentheses? Is this referring to a section or is it quoted text? If the latter, put quote marks The duration is given as 23 minutes - given by whom? in the table, why does mvmt 2 lack a key? Dürr noted in his standard work - work? Is it a book? A composition? Be specific Bach used similar means in his Christmas Oratorio in the Sinfonia - and in the sinfonia? The phrase is derived from Romans 8:15 ("ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father") and Galatians 4:6 (And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.) - why quote marks for Romans but not for Galatians? In subheader 5, it discussed an A and B section, but does not explicitly state the form- is it ABA? Clarify and link
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	The refs section doesn't need the "by author" subheaders- because they're so small, merge the two and put them in alphabetically with the article titles first for those without authors Complies with MoS standards
2. Verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	Prose is well-cited
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	How are bach-chorales.com and Bach Cantatas Website reliable?
	2c. it contains no original research.	No OR concerns
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	Earwig shows low scores- any tags are for words from the piece or quotes in the article
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	How were the recordings selected?
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	Ditto above- may be excessive detail
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	No neutrality concerns
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	Image is PD-Art tagged
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	Image is relevant and captioned
	7. Overall assessment.

Replies to prose questions 1a

1. In the infobox and prose, link taille and oboe d'amour- I've never heard of the former and the latter is likely also unknown to the general reader

   done

2. The prescribed readings for that Sunday were from the First Epistle of Peter, Christ as a model - with christ as a model? What's he being the model of?

   Its five verses, and many things listed (click on the thing in brackets), - too many to be mentioned for my taste especially as the cantata refers only to the gospel

3. The writer of the cantata text is unknown. He found - its likely that a man wrote the libretto, but should a male pronoun still be used? "The librettist" or just "they" would be more neutral

   interesting, I never thought of that, - done

4. In the second recitative, he deduced - I'm not sure deduced is the right word here. He figured it out? Perhaps "included" or "wrote"

   (will replace "he" once we find something) - the idea of the second follows from the first, is derived from it, the first leads to the second - what is a good word (and better without "he")?

   "Formulated" would make more sense if you want to retain the idea of it being crafted- otherwise, just "wrote" would work fine MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:30, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

5. "for faith's reward after a gentle sleep of death" (John 10:11–16, des Glaubens Lohn nach einem sanften Todesschlafe) - could be my lack of liturgical knowledge, but why is there german in the parentheses? Is this referring to a section or is it quoted text? If the latter, put quote marks

   rephased and quote marks, please check

6. The duration is given as 23 minutes - given by whom?

   same Dürr - remark moved to where he is mentioned

7. in the table, why does mvmt 2 lack a key?

   in most recitatives, the keys are not stable - mwmt 4 being in one is the one exception I noticed so far (compare BWV 1) - Dürr mentions first and last, but when those are "flats" it would make the columns very broad

8. Dürr noted in his standard work - work? Is it a book? A composition? Be specific

   done - I keep forgetting that the Bible on the Bach cantatas is not known, moved the book title to where the author is first mentioned and linked

9. Bach used similar means in his Christmas Oratorio in the Sinfonia - and in the sinfonia?

   no, in the Sinfonia opening Part II of the oratorio, but I'd prefer not to have the well-known title at the end, - would a comma do? or what?

   Ah, no, this makes sense, I must've misread it MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:33, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

10. The phrase is derived from Romans 8:15 ("ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father") and Galatians 4:6 (And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.) - why quote marks for Romans but not for Galatians?
11. I gave them to the Romans because the quote begins in the middle of a sentence and thought the other other is clear, but for fairness added them there ;)
12. In subheader 5, it discussed an A and B section, but does not explicitly state the form- is it ABA? Clarify and link

    good point, - I keep forgetting that not everybody knows that almost all Bach cantata arias are da capo arias. Believe it or not, I have linked to aria since 2010, and read it now for the first time, and it has nothing at all about arias in cantatas. For now, I changed the link to da capo arias, and say "middle section". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:10, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Reply to 1b

Not sure yet. I'd really like the Bach Digital first as the basic info. In articles with more sources, those by authors are grouped in books, journals, web (compare 227) - but this no FA ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough then- I just haven't seen them organized this way, which doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, but moreover a unique interpretation. It's ll good MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:36, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Replies to 2b

• A bit of history. For the longest time, Bach Cantatas Website was the only ref for cantata recordings (and not mentioned as a ref, just copied from there). I think it's still the most detailed resource about the recordings there is, mentioning exactly recorded where with individual orchestra players ... - It was disputed by Francis Schonken as self-published, but Francis is banned. For FAs, I replaced it by other refs, and I could do the same here, or support it by others. The recordings are also referenced by Muziekweb.
• Bach Chorales has the nicest presentation of the music together with facts, and it's only used in combination. I moved to the section on the chorale where readers are most likely to want to see the music. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:44, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

  All good here then, thanks for clarifying MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:37, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Replies to 3a and b

I don't know. I found articles such as BWV 1 in 2010. The recordings played a large role. I reduced bold face and repetition of vocal parts. When I began BWV 104, I followed the example. Among the criteria may have been

• being one of the five complete cycles of cantata recordings
• notable performers
• historic uniqueness.

In larger articles, we have come to split the recordings to a discography article, but I feel this is too short. I can look if other recordings would also deserve to be included. In those larger articles, we have a section explaining the complete recordings, historically informed practice etc, but I feel to repeat it here would be excessive. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:57, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I changed the Werner recording to his second, for which we have a review, and the Netherlands Bach Society one that was under external links so far (recorded 2018, released 2020.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I was wondering if it was neutral to select recordings, since there was a discussion about this at Firebird, but I now see that they're not comparable. Thanks for clarifying the methodology MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.