Talk:Dubitative mood

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This article is arguing with itself (has comments in the text). AnonMoos 08:48, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

This article states that this is an example of evidentiality - this is simply incorrect. Evidentiality is the stating of information source, and never 'epistemology' - judging the quality of information source. I can't find the quote right now, but see 'Evidentiality', Aikhenvald 2004. TzirTtzi

Removed the sentence. It's not an evidential, but what is called a judgement modality in SIL's Glossary of linguistic terms. --ἀνυπόδητος (talk) 18:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

The German example and the evidential claim

I removed the German example for now, per AnonMoos' comments above. It read:

Dubitative mood in German can be expressed when reporting events one did not experience personally. Compare the following two German sentences:

Der neue Kanzler sagt, er werde die Zahl der Arbeitslosen senken.

"The new chancellor says he will reduce unemployment."

Der neue Kanzler sagt, er würde die Zahl der Arbeitslosen senken.

"The new chancellor says he will reduce unemployment."

[Caution: Following statement is not precise and requires review, as "werde" is in fact a subjunctive form. "wird" would be the simple (indicative) present. "werde" and "würde" express progressively greater levels of doubt in speakder's mind of agent's (chancellor's) probability of action.] In the first sentence, the phrase er werde, using a simple future form, indicates that the speaker is neutral about what the chancellor's ability and intention, while in the second sentence, the phrase er würde, using a subjunctive form, indicates that the speaker doubts the chancellor will be able to keep his promise, or doubts even the chancellor's desire to do so.

I also hid the claim that the dubitative is an evidential, per TzirTzi's comments above. If we're going to add the German example back in, I think we need to both (a) figure out what's actually grammatically correct and what the verb forms are..., and (b) improve and condense the description/explanation, which as it stands now strikes me as unnecessarily confusing to lay readers. But I dunno. --Miskwito 09:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

That' right, "werde" in this example is "Konjunktiv I" (perhaps translatable as "first subjunctive [sic]") future. German requires a "Konjunktiv" (subjunctive) for indirect speech, so this form does not express any doubt. "würde" is "Konjunktiv II" ("second subjunctive") future, which additionally expresses doubt. Isn't this equivalent to English "The new chancellor says he would reduce unemployment"? I've never heard anyone call this a dubitative mood, though this would be a correct description of the meaning. --ἀνυπόδητος (talk) 18:43, 28 December 2009 (UTC)