Talk:Duke of Gascony

Clean up needed

The list lacks of many Dukes, specially the first Frankish ones and those that were also Dukes of Aquitaine. Some linked Dukes's dates and correlations are somewhat confuse and inconsistent with each other.

For those who can read Spanish, a complementary source may be Auñamendi Encyclopedia corresponding entry but it is a historical article not specifically focused in the Dukes but the Duchy and ending with the transformation of Vasconia into Gascony after Arnold's death.

I have just written the corresponding entry Duchy of Vasconia, based on it and, when checking, I found some incongruencies, specially with Counts of Vasconia (a separate realm) listed as Dukes and some dates. --Sugaar 17:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the Frankish ones were to be added. I will get to work on that eventually. They are not the exact same as the dukes of Aquitaine.

Many of the dates are uncertain. The articles should contain details (I wrote most of them).

Srnec 06:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

As you can see I already added the Dukes Aquitaine and Vasconia of the first period, when according to my sources both states were in personal union (and enjoyed some decades of peace until the arrival of Muslims and Charles Martel).

My source (above) mentions the following chronology for the Duchy of Vasconia (modern Gascony) and for the temporarily segrgated County of Vasconia (+/- modern Pays Basque):

• Seguin II: 839-844 (in Bourdeaux, Frankish vassal, killed by Norsemen).
• William: 844-852 (in Bourdeaux too, prisioner of Norsemen in 848, deposed by Charles the Bald)
• Sans Sancion: 852-855 (captured by Muza of the [Banu Qasi] in 853)
• Arnold: 855-864

Full list:

Duques de Vasconia. Ducado de Vasconia (58 años dependiente de los francos). Genial 602 -606 Aigino 626 a 638 Amando 638 a 660 Ducado de Vasconia y de Aquitania unidos (108 años de Independencia). Félix 660 a 670 Lupo I Otsoa "El Lobo" 670 a 710 Eudón "El Grande 710 a 735 Hunaldo I 735 a 744 Waifre 744 a 768 Ducado de Vasconia (sin la Aquitania primero y en la lucha armada contra los francos). Lupo II768 a 778 Lupo Sanzio I 778 a 812 suiguin o Semen 818 a 816 Garci-Eneco(nes 816 a 818 Lupo III Zentulo "Wasco" 819 a 823 Suiguin o Sigwinum ? a 844 Guillelmu 844 a 852 Sancho-Sanción 852 a 855 Arnaud 855 a 864

Translation:

Dukes of Vasconia.
Duchy of Vasconia (58 years dependent of the Franks). Genial 602-606, Aigino 626-638, Amando 638-660.
Duchy of Vasconia and Aquitaine united (108 years of independence. Felix 660-670, Lop I Otsoa the Wolf (670-710), Eudes [Odo] the Great 710-735, Hunald I 735-744, Waifer 744-768.
Duchy of Vasconia (without Aquitaine first and [later] in armed struggle against the Franks). Lop II 768-778, Lop Sancion I [Sans Lop I, it seems] 778-812, Seguin or Semen 818-816, Gassia Eneco(nes) 816-818, Lop III Centulus Wasco 819-823, Seguin ??-844, William 844-852, Sans Sancion 852-855, Arnold 855-864.

Notice that the Dukes of Aquitaine Bertrand and Hubert are not mentioned. (I'll see what I can find about this).

Seguin and Willian are Frankish vassals who do not control the mountains (County of Vasconia) but have their seat at Bourdeaux, where they rule as Counts of this city (never properly part of Vasconia).

Aznar seems to be only Count of Vasconia (Northern Basque Country, segregated in early 9th century), not Duke of Vasconia (Gascony). His brother is Sans Sancion is also Count of Vasconia (Pays Basque) but fights against Charles the Bald in 848-852, apparently capturing the Duchy then.

Gassia Eneco(nes) is said to be either relative or otherwise confused with Eneco Enecones (Iñigo I of Pamplona). From the dates and patronimic, the could well be brothers.

In this period around the three Battles of Roncevaux (778-824), there seems to be 4 "Vascon" states: Duchy of Vasconia (the oldest one but under Frankish overlordship under Seguin II and William, ??-852), County of Vasconia (segregated maybe in 819, reunited to the Duchy in 852, with Sans Sancion, Kingdom (?) of Pamplona (since maybe 810 or 824) and the Emirate of Tudela (Muslim state related dynastically to the other ones: Banu Qasi), since c. 800.

Arnold claimed as ruling from 855, looks the last Duke using the name Vasconia or Wasconia. The article says that after the year of his death (864) the duchy would be known as Gascony and rather separated from Basque history, as a romanized province.

Do you think this is calrifying? I do find it very interesting actually, and I also believe that it should help to improve this article and the ones on the diferent Dukes. --Sugaar 10:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I've done some modifications, trying not to destroy anything that was before but mentioning also the dates that Estornés (Auñamendi) gives, what sometimes makes the dates very uncertain. I'll review the different Dukes one by one, contrasting with any other sources available.

The most important change maybe is the (apart of the adition of the three early Dukes) is surely the mention of the temporarily separate County of Vasconia, what could clarify many things.

If you have differences or doubts, let's discuss it an join efforts for a more complete and comprehensive list. --Sugaar 13:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure if you are aware of the indepth article the Catalan Wiki has on the early duchies of Aquitaine and Gascon, problem is it sometimes contradicts other sources and the Catalan articles are unreferenced! My Catalan is rusty, but my Spanish and French are okay.

Best I can tell from my sources, which I have now listed in toto at the Duchy of Vasconia article and which can be seen at the individual dukes' articles, Seguin II was a Frankish count of Bordeaux who was made duke of the thitherto vacant duchy of Gascony in 845 and died defending Bordeaux from the Vikings the next year. His successor was another Frank, William, of disputed parentage, who saw the fall of Bordeaux to the pagans. This William was killed trying to retake it in 848 and the duchy was again left vacant while the territory was fought over by Frankish counts, Vikings, and the Basque (Gascon) population under their leader Sans Sancion. This Sans had been King Pepin II's nominee for duke of Gascony, but Pepin had not long been in control of Aquitaine. Sans submitted to Charles at least as early as 850, but is not surely duke (by Charles' nomination) until 852/853. Thereafter competing claims to the duchy basically cease.

I accept the existence of the Duchy of Gascony, a Frankish creation originally designed as an Aquitainian march against the Basques/Gascons/Vascones. The kingdom of Pamplona is a Basque state at the time, but quite distinct from the duchy/county except that Pamplona itself was part of Louis the Pious' empire at the least. The county of Vasconia is, I think, merely a usage found in Frankish chronicles to describe the local leaders (mostly ethnically local as well) of the Basques within what was properly part of the Frankish duchy. That is, the "counts" were disputants with some Frankish ruler (though often partisans of another) over the Pyrenean territory of the Duchy of Gascony. The emirate was ethnically Basque, but politically distinct in almost every way.

I have added a bunch of sources, this article (like Gascony and Duchy of Vasconia) needs a little cleanup for clarification and comprehensiveness, as well as rectifying the various sources. This period of history of this regions is very difficult to illumine perfectly and few have tried, but it is interesting and I am more than happy to cooperate in making the English Wiki's articles the best source on the net (or perhaps anywhere). Srnec 05:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a real mess, I admit, but we can surely build up some NPOV good article(s) but it will require some work.

Of the sources you give (apart of the .aow formatted one, sorry: my PDF reader doesn't work, do you have an HTML link?) the only really good one is the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, though the article is almost exclusively based in Monlezun's History of Gascony, that looks a secondary late source.

The article on ca.Wikipedia seems extensive but sadly the lack of sources makes it a rather weak support (though we can use it for orientation).

So in the end we have Estornés' and Monlezun's chronologies. Let's compare them (see below).

Regarding the Basque-ness of Duchy, it would seem that Frankish and Basque conception of it were at fight with the following phases:

602-660: Frankish "march"

660-768: Independent or quasi-independent Duchy of Aquitaine and Vasconia (personal union)

768-812: Autonomous Duchy of Vasconia under native Dukes (almost exact Charlemagne's reign)

812-848/852 Multiple Dukes or claimants: Counts of Bordeaux (Frankish) vs. Counts of Vasconia (Basques), also maybe Counts of Bigorre for some time...

848/852-864-872: Independent ("rebel") Basque Duchy (apparently under relatives of the Kings of Pamplona)

After Arnold it's the Duchy of Gascony properly speaking, still semi-independent (and in more than just good relations with Pamplona) for a time.

The general timeline seems quite clear. --Sugaar 15:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Compared chronologies

(1) Estornés' chronology; (2) Monlezun's chronology; (3) Catalan Wikipedia's one.

• Genial (1) 602-606 (typo for 626?); (3) 607-627
• Aichine (1) 626-638; (3) 627-628
• unknown (3) 628-631
• Bogis and Bertrand (associate) (3) 631
• Amand (1) 638-660; (3) 631-645
• unknown (3) 645-660

• Felix (1) 660-670; (3) 660-670
• Lop I (1) 670-710; (3) 670-685
• Bertrand (3) 685-688
• Eudes [Odo] the Great (1) 710-735; (3) 688-735
• Hunald I (1) 735-744; (3) 735-745 (associated with Count Ato - of Vasconia?)
• Waifer (1) 744-768; (3) 745-768

• Lop II (1) 768-778; (2) ??-775; (3) 768-778
• Sans Lop I (1) 778-812; (3) 768-824 (since 812 "nominal")

• Seguin or Semen (1) 812-816; (2) ??-814/815; (3) 812-816 (Count of Bordeaux)
• Seguin (1) ??-844; (2) 815-816 + 845(-846?) (Two Seguins?); (3) 816-845? (Count of Bordeaux)
• William (1) 844-852; (2) 846-848 (Count of Bordeaux)

• Gassia Eneco(nes) (1) 816-818; (2) Gassia Semeno ??-??
• Lop III Centule Wasco (1) 819-823 (2) ??-819

• Totilon (2) ??-845

• Garsimir (3) 816-819 (Count of Bigorre)
• Lop III (3) 819 (Count of Bigorre)

• Sans (2) ??-836
• Aznar (1) ??-836 (Count of Vasconia, conqueror of Jaca, captured by Pamplonese in 824 but set free); (3) 820-836
• Sans Sancion (1) 852-855 (since 836 Count of Vasconia); (2) 848-852; (3) 826-864
• Arnold (1) 855-864; (2) 864-872; (3) 864-872

Stopping here because I think it's where the differences end more or less. --Sugaar 15:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion

I suggest the following outline for the list (excluding those that appear only in the usourced Catalan Wiki article):

Frankish Dukes of Vasconia (602-660)

• Genial 602-626
• Aichine 626-638
• Amand 638-660

Dukes of Vasconia and Aquitaine (personal union, quasi-independent)

• Felix 660-670
• Lop I 670-710
• Eudes [Odo] the Great 710-735
• Hunald I 735-744
• Waifer 744-768

Dukes of Vasconia (Basque under Frankish overlordship)

• Lop II 768?-775/778
• Sans Lop I 778-812

Dukes of Vasconia and Counts of Bordeaux (Frankish)

• Seguin or Semen 812-814/815/816
• Seguin 816/815-844/845 (could be two diferent persons)
• William 844/846-848/852 (note: according to Estornés, he wasn't killed by Vikings, just captured - and then ransomed, I imagine)

Independent (rebel) Dukes of Vasconia (Basques)

• Gassia Eneco(nes)/Semeno 816(?)-818(?)
• Lop III Centule Wasco ??-819 or 819-823

Counts of Vasconia (Basques)

• Aznar ??-836 (Conqueror of Jaca, captured by the Pamplonese in 824 but set free because of cosanguineity - his companion, Eblus, was sent to Cordoba instead, where he was excuted)
• Sans Sancion 836-852/855

Independent Dukes of Vasconia (Basques)

• Sans Sancion 848-852 or 852-855 (note: it would look like 848-852 is the period in which he fights against William, not his reign)
• Arnold 855-864 or 864-872

(etc.)

Do you like it? Or am I missing some relevant data from that PDF text? --Sugaar 15:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

You're not missing much. I would spell it Aighyna, not Aichine, in English. The chronology of two periods is disputable: 660-768 (and longer in Aquitaine) and 812-852. As you will see from the article Aznar I Galíndez, the two Aznars are almost impossible to extricate on the basis of secondary sources and assigning who's who to primary sources would be difficult and presumptuous in the face of the secondary sources. In fact, I find it quite possible (but not likely) that there was only one Aznar. I would like you to also look at the unsourced French Wikipedia article on "Gascogne". Both the Catalan and French Wikis are clearly based on good sources, but they don't tell us what ones! My sources tell me nothing about Boggis, Bertrand, Hatto, etc. Srnec 17:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll take a look at the French article. The problem is that Wikipedia is not a source for Wikipedia (unless there are no other sources, I understand, like when just translating an article from another Wikipedia to fill in a blank). Much less if they don't mention their sources (very un-encyclopedic).

The French article (Gascogne), makes emphasis in the alleged lineages of the dukes, claiming Odo as son of Boggis (not mentioned earlier) and Lop II as son of Odo. With all reserves, it sounds quite imaginative, considering that Monlezun does not dare to make such family connections.

On Aznar (from azenari, "Fox" in Basque), I am under the strong impression that there's only one: Aznar Sans, Count of Vasconia already in 224, when he was sent by Louis the Pious with Eblus of Auvergne to campaing south of the Pyrenees, being captured both in the 3rd battle of Roncevaux by the Pamplonese and Banu Qasi and liberated for reasons of cosanguineity (and maybe, once can imagine, other diplomatic arrangements). Eblus, who was surely the main commander, was sent to Cordoba, where I believe he was executed.

This episode, I understand, represents a "truce" between the rebellion of Gassia and Lop III and the new rebellion of Sans II, this time triumphant. It would be a dynasty, in which Aznar maybe had to compromise with the Franks being recognized as Count of Vasconia and having in exchange to help his Frankish overlord in his campaigns. What we will never know is if he may have facilitated the ambush being that the actual reason because he was set free... who knows? His son Sans does indeed rebel, giving continuity to the Basque-Gascon resistence/independence.

Well, whatever the case, agreed then to follow the above scheme and restrict the article to what we can source. Ok? --Sugaar 08:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move article Duke of Gascony to section Dukes of Vasconia/Gascony. Iñaki LL (talk) 19:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

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The article Duke of Gascony is a non-article. The only real text is about the Duchy, which is already found in this article, followed by lists of names of the various dukes through time. These lists can easily be transposed to this page, after which the page can be eliminated. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 08:11, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ruy, agree on that. The links to other languages point to that arrangement—they are related to the duchy, not the dukes. Iñaki LL (talk) 13:15, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I am moving in the discussion on the merger proposal from the article Duchy of Vasconia. Iñaki LL (talk) 09:24, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.