Talk:EFL Championship play-offs/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Amakuru (talk · contribs) 12:49, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Format

• Although this is covered in "History", perhaps indicate in some way that this is the current format, just to be clear that in early years a slightly different system was used?
• The introductory two sentences could be expanded a bit, I think, to make sure it's completely obvious to a newcomer what this is about. Looking at the FA 2017 EFL Championship play-off Final, I see the text "Reading F.C. finished the regular 2016–17 season in third place in the EFL Championship, the second tier of the English football league system, two places ahead of Huddersfield Town. Both therefore missed out on the two automatic places for promotion to the Premier League and instead took part in the play-offs to determine the third promoted team". Text along these lines (but removing the specific teams and season reference obviously) would seem to cover it well, defining clearly what the Championship is, what the pyramid is, where the promoted teams end up etc. I've also just noticed that the two sentences are virtually identical to the text in the source, so there's probably a copyvio issue here too.
• "The team finishing in third place plays the sixth-placed team, while the team in fourth plays the fifth-placed team, in a two-legged tie" - this sounds slightly wrong, given that there are actually two different ties. Maybe either "a pair of two-legged ties", or move the "in a two-legged tie" bit to be directly after the mention of the third-vs-sixth?
• Second paragraph - this is also extremely close paraphrasing of [1]. I suppose we could decide this is just a bread-and-butter definition of how the format works, and there's no other way to say it, but something to think about anyway.
• "the match goes into extra time where two halves of 15-minutes off additional time are played" - extra time ... additional time sounds a bit repetitive. Maybe just "in which two further halves of 15-minutes are played"?
• "penalty shootout" - our article has a hyphen in "shoot-out".

  The irony of the fact you linked to an article which redirected to "shootout".... I think it's horses for courses. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:59, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• Might be worth explicitly mentioning that the away goals rule doesn't apply in the play-off semi-finals, since someone only familiar with European competition might think it did.
• "The clubs who win the semi-finals" - change "who" to "that"?
• Mention somewhere that the Wembley match is called the "play-off final".
• Maybe mention somewhere that the matches take place after the end of the regular season? The final is usually on the Spring Bank Holiday Monday, if I'm not mistaken, so you could mention that too if it's sourced.
• More to come soon  — Amakuru (talk) 13:43, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Amakuru all addressed, but if you have further suggestions on this portion, I'd appreciate it. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 14:18, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

History

• The opening sentence seems to some extent to launch into the middle of the narrative here. Presumably the longer-term history is that the league (and the clubs?) were unhappy with the amount of TV revenue they were getting, and that this rejection was a culmination of that dissatisfaction. If that's correct, then some intro to that effect might be useful.

  I've added some grim background reading as to the malaise in the English game. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 14:46, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• Had the notion of play-offs ever been considered before the Heathrow Agreement?

  I have no evidence to suggest they were. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 14:46, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• And if not, why were play-offs suddenly on the menu in 1985? Who came up with that idea and why? It's one thing to reduce the league from 22 to 20 clubs, but I think a bit more explanation as to why that necessitated play-offs would be useful.

  It was part of the Heathrow Agreement to: "make a fair and equitable transition for reduction of First Division". It literally was all about giving teams a last chance to survive. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 14:46, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• This link here [2] suggests that the play-offs were originally meant to be temporary, to facilitate the above drop in the number of top-flight teams (as well as "staggered promotion and relegation", whatever that means). Hence someone must have made the decision to keep using them even after that initial reason was completed. Any info?

  Added some detail. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 14:57, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• "The play-offs were introduced to the end of the league season in the 1986–87 season" - repetition of "season".

  Reworded. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 14:57, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• "along with the three clubs below the automatic promotion positions in the Second Division" - I might put a pair of commas around this clause.

  Added. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 14:57, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

  Done. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 15:04, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• "The 1989 play-offs was the first season to feature four teams from the Second Division" - some indication of why this change was made would be useful.

  Done. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 15:04, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• "a move which caused the league to be renamed as the First Division - this isn't technically correct, is it? I thought legally the First Division was the same one as it had always been, only that all its clubs departed leaving the Second Division clubs to fill up the spaces in the First Division. Which means technically that from then on the First Division play-offs were a brand new competition. Although it's correct to regard this as a de facto continuation of the old Second Division play-offs, it's probably worth making that explicit.

  I think that is a nuance too far. I'm using an RS to say it was "renamed" as well. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 15:10, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• On a similar note, perhaps explicitly mention all of the different names that have been used, if only because the individual final articles from the relevant years bear those names.

  Table added. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 15:10, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• Other than that, I think section this is probably fairly complete, assuming there were no other noteworthy "incidents" similar to Swindon's failure to be promoted?  — Amakuru (talk) 14:11, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Prize

• "the match is still referred to..." - wording sounds slightly unattributed here; not sure what the answer is, as most solutions would also be unattributed, but to give some sense that this is the opinion of experts rather than just idle banter.

  Well that's what the following sentences go on to say? The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 15:15, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• I believe there's also a trophy awarded to the winner. Some detail on that would be useful, and has it always been the same one?

  I agree there is a trophy, but I can find almost nothing on it other than "it's awarded". Added that with a 2020 ref. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 15:15, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• Otherwise, despite the brevity of this section I guess that's all that needs to be said.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:06, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Winners and semi-finalists

• I'm not mad keen on the ^ R & P notation here. Would it not be possible to spell out all the details explicitly, so that where there was a replay we give both the scores of both games; and where there were penalties, we give the score in the shoot-out? Looking at List of FA Cup Finals that format looks OK to me - replays are listed separately, while penalty scores are given as a clickable footnote. (Also, that list uses * and † to mark the entries, which is IMHO slightly easier on the eye than bolded letters).

  I've made a start on this, can you just confirm it's ok? I could list the penalty shootout results as footnotes, what do you think? The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 15:37, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

  Yes that looks great, thanks.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:32, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• Up to you, but I'm not certain that "Year", "Venue", "Winner (X)", "Final", "Runner-up" and "Semi-finalists" really need to be in the key. The only thing that is really needed is what the (X) means, but that's handled in List of English football champions by including "(number of titles)" in the column header.

  I'm happy with the table as it stands, it surely makes the article understandable to a seven-year-old American child. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 15:17, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• Make the footnote 1 for Swindon/Sunderland a clickable/hoverable footnote.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:06, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

  Done. I have no idea why I didn't do that first time round. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 15:37, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Amakuru back to you, thanks for the great review, much appreciated. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 15:38, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Amakuru okay, table done too. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 16:42, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Alright, many thanks. I think this article now meets all of the Wikipedia:Good_article_criteria, including quality of prose, verifiability and broad coverage, so I'm happy to pass it. Any further issues can be addressed at FAC, if it gets that far. Cheers and thanks for the good work.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:46, 3 May 2021 (UTC)