Talk:Earl of Tyrone

Counts of Tyrone

Two things.

• This is an article about a title in the Peerage of Ireland as established by the Kings of England and Ireland. The title of "Earl of Tyrone" was extinguished by attainder in 1614; any successors are pretenders and have no status unless the attainder should be overturned.
• By the same token, the "Counts of Tyrone" of the Spanish Netherlands should have their own article. And I'm not sure why Mary Auguste O'Neill has been placed in the succession; if the title was in fact dormant after her uncle's death, and it was granted to heirs-male, it would pass (unknowingly) to the father of James. This could use clarification and references. Choess 06:58, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I think Choess is correct on these two items and it has been changed to reflect the Continental nature of the title after 1616. Also, and details of the succession between 1888-1937. She is correct in stating that the ancestor of James was technically the Count. However, titles are not "caught up" in death. So James, as the senior living member of that line of O'Neill, is made the 9th holder of the title; eventhough his line had been eligible for the title 49 years previously.

Wait, what? 20th century earls?

The list of the first creation ends like this:

• Brian Roe O'Neill, 7th Earl of Tyrone 1616-1685
• Thomas O'Neill, 8th Earl of Tyrone (b.1930)
• His Heir apparent, Francis O'Neill (b.1955)
• Francis' Heir presumptive, his brother, Fearghal O'Neill (b.1962)

What's the deal with those last three? With the 300-year gap? Huh? --Jfruh (talk) 01:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

First creation ended in 1607

The 2nd earl in the first creation knew that his title from the Kingdom of Ireland would become forfeit when he left in 1607. His successors were never created earls but were made counts (the same rank) by the Papacy and Spain. Therefore the recent claimants as earls (as distinct from counts) would have to a) claim their title and b) be granted it; which hasn't happened. I can call myself King of the Arctic but it is worthless if no third party government recognises me as King of the Arctic.86.46.226.154 (talk) 10:08, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Count of Tyrone explains also why they were not Earl of Tyrone.86.46.226.154 (talk) 10:13, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Count of Tyrone?

In addition, the closely related French line of Comte de Tyrone Count of Tyrone, maintained succession through 1925.

The date strongly suggests that this is the Martinique line of O'Neills (although 1925 is wrong; it should be 1901). One normally reliable source dismisses this claim entirely; I can find no evidence of the alleged Vatican recognition; a Develin genealogist describes them as being of another branch of the O'Neills altogether. I am perfectly willing to edit according to the evidence; O'Neills are nothing to me. But what is the evidence, where are the sources, in their favor? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:11, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Line of Owen Roe

• Hugo O'Neill, 6th Earl of Tyrone<:ref>(A.H.N.), Madrid Calatrava, original 1667, transcribed 1831</ref>, d. 1667 (Grandson of General Owen Roe O'Neill) Died 1671. His cousin:
• Brian Roe O'Neill, 7th Earl of Tyrone, Grandson of Art MacBaron O'Neill, b. 1616– d.1683 (Titled in Spain)
• Eugenio O'Neill, 8th Earl of Tyrone, great grandson of Eoghan Roe O'Neill, title claimed in 1683, contested by Cormac MacShane O'Neill of Loughinsholin<:ref>"The Ancient and Royal Family of O'Neill" 1996. under Conn Bacach O'Neill descendants</ref>, Ireland on the grounds of illegitimacy, but granted in 1685 by King to Eugenio. It is determined that he died sometime soon after 1692 as the Irish Regiment was disbanded that year,<:ref>The Petition of Don Bernardo O'Neill, 1692, translated by Micheline K. Walsh, Seanchas Ard Mhacha</ref> probably due to his death. Line extinquished.

As per the Will of Sean/Juan O'Neill, 3rd Conde de Tiron, dated December 1640<:ref>The Will of John O'Neill, Third Earl of Tyrone, dated September 18th, 1640, Translated by Micheline Kearney Walsh</ref> , upon the extinction of the line of Hugh O'Neill, 2nd Earl of Tyrone, all rights of title, land, and Chiefship would lawfully pass to the line of Shane an Diomas O'Neill and his family, know as the Mac Shanes. Cormac MacShane O'Neill was one of this family. That line maintained a lineage of Chiefship in Ireland at least to 1888.<:ref>Irish Pedigrees, by John O'Hart, pg. 727-728</ref> -

All these are retrieved from the text; the Spanish forms of the names only add confusion to what is confusing enough. The only one of these sources generally available is John O'Hart, and pp. 727-8 in the fifth edition is a description of the Lia Fail, which does not even mention the O'Neills; searching the text leaves me unable to confirm the claim. That the MacShanes survived, or survive, in Ireland seems not unlikely; it is largely irrelevant to this article, since the peerage cannot pass by will. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:10, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

These Spanish O'Neills are all listed in Micheline Walsh Kearney's translations 1960-1970 in a combined "The Will of John O'Neill, Third Earl of Tyrone" and "Don Bernardo of Aughnacloy, Co. Tyrone". I have both scanned from the original Armagh Historical Society Journal. If you want them, I can email them. Also see "Henry O'Neill and the Formation of the Irish Regiment in the Netherlands, 1605" by Jerrod Casway. Princeton03 (talk) 15:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Note that both of Walsh's papers say that Shane O'Neill had one son, Hugo Eugenio O'Neill. This article is a hoax exaggerating a nineteenth-century hoax. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:15, 3 July 2011 (UTC)