Talk:Early history of Pomerania

Balts

(copied from User talk:Novickas)

Every once and a while I encounter IPs (latest:[1]) at the Pomerania article and the History of Pomerania series introducing a Baltic period into the prehistory section. Unfortunately, these IPs have in common that never there is an account or a longstanding IP to talk with, and I have in the past reversed the IPs' unsourced entries.

However, the IPs' claims - though always unsourced and presented in an odd way - do not seem completely made-up, but seem to rely on "real" theories from the 1960s, at least there is a stub ("Pomeranian Balts") using such sources and linking a map showing a Baltic extension as far west as Lübeck and Berlin. Yet, those Balts are said in the article to have lived in Pomerania 1500 BC to 1 AD, a period in which all reliable sources I used for the History of Pomerania and especially Early History of Pomerania articles ascribe the Jastorf culture, Lusatian culture, Pomeranian culture and Oxhöft culture to Pomerania, all of which are well-established archeological cultures usually not associated with Balts. Also, the Balts article (which is in a bad shape regarding sources) states that the Balts emerged only after 1 AD, and "Pomeranian Balts" are only mentioned once, in a table with an unreferenced-tag.

For these reasons, the occasional "Balts" insertions by the IPs have a strong smell of trolls spreading fringe theories. But just because I never heard of it and regard it unlikely, it is of course not sure that Pomerania never was inhabited by some sort of proto-culture somehow associated with proto-Balts, or even that there is a substantiated and verifiable thesis put forward by reliable historians that there once was a Baltic population in (parts of) the area.

Novickas, as an editor who knows everything about Baltic history :), do you know anything about this matter? Regards Skäpperöd (talk) 14:56, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Me? I was just telling Renata about how I used to sleep in Saturday school. Anyway. If Marija Gimbutas has not been discredited in this regard, they had some presence in the area until the 11th- 12th centuries AD. I'm a little wary of this online reprint mentioning that - not sure if it's legit (didn't see say copyright M.G xxxx, reprinted with permission) [2] A more recent ref [3] (University of Pisa) refers to "the so-called Pomerania-Balts at the far west of the prehistorical Baltic area." Also, from Lituanus 1979, "In the central Pomerania arose the culture of Rzucewo and that of Narva-Nemunas, the latter embracing also the territory of the old Jatvingia, Lithuania, Latvia and part of Estonia." [4] (Nemunas culture is, I think, well-established). So the general concept doesn't seem completely fringe. A Google book search of "pomerania balts prehistoric" yields 79 results, but all just snippets. Some probably hinges on the definition of prehistoric. Hope this helps - sorry the articles are under-sourced, there's only so much time :( Regards, Novickas (talk) 00:56, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Baltic names of water bodies don't extend too far west past the Vistula with regard to modern Pomerania straddling Germany and Poland, unfortunately I don't have any good sources for the maximum westward expansion of the Balts/Pomeranians. PetersV       TALK 02:14, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't have much time investigating this. But it seems that past Vistula "Baltic character is doubtful" (mid-1st millennium BC). So it seems to be a theory but not yet widely accepted or rejected. Renata (talk) 03:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

After some research, I traced down the Balt theories to the Rzucewo culture (and the subsequent ones). It seems however that the "Baltic connection" of this culture is rather a former theory that is not dogmatically upheld.

I introduced the following sentence to Early history of Pomerania: "While most of Pomerania was part of or influenced by the Single Grave culture subgroup, eastern Pomerelia belonged to the Rzucewo (also Bay Coast or Haffküsten) culture subgroup stretching from Pomerelia to Lithuania,[22][23] formerly associated with early Balts.[24]" and stubbed Rzucewo culture.

Also, I introduced: "This culture is considered to mark the (proto-)Germanic-Baltic frontier. A linguistic classification, whether Baltic, Germanic, or interlink, is not possible.[33]" to the Pomeranian culture subsection.

Thank you all very much for your help, any additional comments/suggestions are welcome. Skäpperöd (talk) 10:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC) and Skäpperöd (talk) 11:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Baltic placenames

[5]: Vistula set as the western border of Baltic placenames. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:43, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Pamariai (the Baltic Coastal) Culture

... is this culture identical with Rzucewo (Bay Coast) culture? I guess so, maybe a source of confusion (Pomerania and Pamariai both mean "at the seacost"). Pamariai culture links: [6], [7], [8] (p.11), [9], [10]. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:43, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Take away Slavs from section : Willenberg (Wielbark) Culture (Eastern Pomerania, 1 - 450 AD) .

The mentioned as possible Slavs Veleti who known from 6-7 th centuries AD is ridiculuos in section dated 1-450 AD ! Edelward (talk) 13:50, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I actually agree with you that this theory is not mainstream, that's why it is attributed with "possibly" twice - in reflection of how the source attributed it. The mainstream view is that the Veleti as a tribe emerged much later, in a different region, and that the Vistula Veneti had nothing to do with the Slavs. The Slav and Veleti theories rather reflect the view of a faction of Polish researches.

I have included these theories as they were included by JM Piskorski, though he makes it clear that it does not appear very likely to him. I would agree to exclude it/elaborate on the present mainstream view of such theories if further respective sources were presented. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:03, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Please delete that map

The map titled File:Old Europe.png is very innaccurate and needs to be deleted immediately. The Vinča Culture shown on that map is completely wrong - it was actually only in a relatively small area in modern-day Serbia, and that map indicates that it took up half of Southeastern Europe! That is just one of the many errors in that map, and having it displayed in this article is just one more example why people feel that Wikipedia is not reliable. Delete it now, please. --Saukkomies ^talk 04:53, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Funnelbeaker culture (green, TRB, ~3500 BC)

I moved that map here. If you can show how that map is inaccurate, please start a request fro deletion at commons, where it is hosted. I completely agree that inaccurate maps should be deleted. Skäpperöd (talk) 06:53, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

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