Talk:Eastbourne International
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1974?
editThe introduction to this page stated that the tournament started in 1974, but all the information I've seen says it started in 1975. the LTA site says "Since it's inception in 1975...", although the Eastbourne Borough Council page I just used as a source says "...have been held in Eastbourne since 1975", which could imply they were held somewhere else first.
More mysterious, however, is that we had (until I removed it) a winner for 1974, not listed on the LTA history page, complete with score line:
| 1974 |  Chris Evert |
 Virginia Wade |
7–5, 6–4 |
Anyone any idea where that came from? - IMSoP (talk) 22:18, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
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History of this tournament pre-dates 1974
editHaving researched this tournaments history these championships were in fact known as the South of England Championships from 1881 until 1970 with a break of 4 years before it was renamed there is an article with the BBC found here How has Eastbourne become a major part of the tennis calendar? that confirms this information this book here confirms the start date Sports Around the World: History, Culture, and Practice edited by John Nauright, Charles Parrish, the local council confirms a major tennis championship started at devonshire park in 1881 here: http://www.eastbourne.gov.uk/residents/leisure-and-events/parks/devonshire/ and this article here https://eastbournetennis.com/history-of-eastbourne-international/ also confirms the connection if there are no objections I will copy this article into a draft page and update it correctly my view is that it should have its proper history acknowledged similar to the Italian Open.--Navops47 (talk) 08:47, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- @Navops47:, absolutely. The South of England Championships was in fact one of the largest tournaments during the beginning of the 20th century and regularly had over 1,000 competitors in its various events, making it on occasion a bigger event in terms of size than Wimbledon. I have quite a bit of info on this so let's work together to build this article up to reflect its significant history.--Wolbo (talk) 10:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- Hi Wolbo sounds great I have moved an initial draft here User:Navops47/sandbox16 which can be worked on as I'm not the most technical of people have had ago at aligning previous winners tables you could take a look at them to see if they are okay? Have added a brief history section to be changed and expanded upon and will add sources as I go along also I have noticed that this seems to be the case with a number of articles where start off points are from 1970's onward another tournament where the case is similar to this is the Birmingham Classic from what I have been reading it was clearly the Midland Counties Championships for years. --Navops47 (talk) 11:10, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- Good plan. Have already added a few years in the article but will add the other info to your draft so it can be copied across in one go when finished.--Wolbo (talk) 11:48, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks have added men's winners minus the scores at this point up to 1955.--Navops47 (talk) 13:55, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- Some concerns have been brought up about this proposal by Fyunck(click) on the draft talk page here: User talk:Navops47/sandbox16 which really should have been aired here so I'm just providing a link to the discussion.--Navops47 (talk) 11:16, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- Looked into this a bit further and have come to the conclusion that there should be two separate articles, a South of England Championships article which covers the period from 1881 until 1974 and the current Eastbourne International article covering the period from 1975 until now. The main source for this is an 80 page booklet on the history of Devonshire Park and the tournament titled "Roller Skates and Rackets". In chapter 8, dealing with the open tennis era, it mentions on p50: "The first John Player tournament in 1974, with nearly £12,000 in prize money at stake, was combined with the eighty second – and last – South of England Championships." This is confirmed by the list of Eastbourne champions on p77 which starts with Virginia Wade in 1975.--Wolbo (talk) 21:34, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yes but is there any reference that the SOE championships was dropped because of the commercial reason the club took to go open and attract sponsors it is possible that the sponsors may have insisted that the previous name was dropped as a condition for the sponsorship deal? I believe the local council was responsible for funding the event when it was the SOE's and could not continue to fund it which is why the deal was done with John Player and the Imperial Tobacco Group.--Navops47 (talk) 02:40, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
- In his book Women's Tennis 1968–84 John Dolan comments on the 1974 edition (p187): "Sponsors John Player decided (to) expand the men's draw in Nottingham from 32 to 64 and therefore moved their women's event to Eastbourne, where Rothman's had sponsored the mixed South of England event up until 1972." This is another clear indication that these were two distinct tournaments and that we should therefore have two articles. Based on the available info it seems the 1974 edition was both the first edition of the Eastbourne International and the final edition of the South of England Championships.--Wolbo (talk) 23:06, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
- Looking at it objectively Ken Pollocks comments in the BBC interview that the current format only came into being in 1974 that leads me now to believe that although he aknowledges a connection they had to go through the process of staging the SOE Champs first in order to learn from it and take the club in a new direction and format so separate seems appropriate in which case though I would like if we can still include an acknowledgment to the SOE champs in the history section of this event briefly with a link to the article when its created please both let me know your thoughts so we can finish it.--Navops47 (talk) 12:31, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that there should be a reference in this article to the preceding South of England Championships as it clearly builds on that history.--Wolbo (talk) 13:35, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure about this split now. Eastbourne itself talks of two British champions in 1970 and 1975... so 1974 is hazy at best. Remember, tournaments have had major remakes yet kept the same tournament name many tines in history. I would tend to keep this is the same article but perhaps split the chart at the 1974 changes. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:51, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- Okay getting very confused now I feel like I am in the middle of tennis rally with you two :) I have also emailed the club yesterday seeking clarification per all previous points raised there is no direct landline to the club which is odd they are only using a mobile number 07581 on the EE cell network the area code for Eastbourne is 01323 I started out with the belief that these two tournaments are one tournament Im still up and down myself with it I would suggest we hold until we get further clarification I have also emailed Karoly Mazak via his webpage I have bought his book thought I would mention that first lets see if he responds I asked him if he could confirm that the the SOE and EBI are the same tournament or two different tournaments in his opinion and provided him with a link to the talk page and draft lets see if he emails me.--Navops47 (talk) 08:24, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure about this split now. Eastbourne itself talks of two British champions in 1970 and 1975... so 1974 is hazy at best. Remember, tournaments have had major remakes yet kept the same tournament name many tines in history. I would tend to keep this is the same article but perhaps split the chart at the 1974 changes. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:51, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that there should be a reference in this article to the preceding South of England Championships as it clearly builds on that history.--Wolbo (talk) 13:35, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- Looking at it objectively Ken Pollocks comments in the BBC interview that the current format only came into being in 1974 that leads me now to believe that although he aknowledges a connection they had to go through the process of staging the SOE Champs first in order to learn from it and take the club in a new direction and format so separate seems appropriate in which case though I would like if we can still include an acknowledgment to the SOE champs in the history section of this event briefly with a link to the article when its created please both let me know your thoughts so we can finish it.--Navops47 (talk) 12:31, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- In his book Women's Tennis 1968–84 John Dolan comments on the 1974 edition (p187): "Sponsors John Player decided (to) expand the men's draw in Nottingham from 32 to 64 and therefore moved their women's event to Eastbourne, where Rothman's had sponsored the mixed South of England event up until 1972." This is another clear indication that these were two distinct tournaments and that we should therefore have two articles. Based on the available info it seems the 1974 edition was both the first edition of the Eastbourne International and the final edition of the South of England Championships.--Wolbo (talk) 23:06, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yes but is there any reference that the SOE championships was dropped because of the commercial reason the club took to go open and attract sponsors it is possible that the sponsors may have insisted that the previous name was dropped as a condition for the sponsorship deal? I believe the local council was responsible for funding the event when it was the SOE's and could not continue to fund it which is why the deal was done with John Player and the Imperial Tobacco Group.--Navops47 (talk) 02:40, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
- Looked into this a bit further and have come to the conclusion that there should be two separate articles, a South of England Championships article which covers the period from 1881 until 1974 and the current Eastbourne International article covering the period from 1975 until now. The main source for this is an 80 page booklet on the history of Devonshire Park and the tournament titled "Roller Skates and Rackets". In chapter 8, dealing with the open tennis era, it mentions on p50: "The first John Player tournament in 1974, with nearly £12,000 in prize money at stake, was combined with the eighty second – and last – South of England Championships." This is confirmed by the list of Eastbourne champions on p77 which starts with Virginia Wade in 1975.--Wolbo (talk) 21:34, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
- Some concerns have been brought up about this proposal by Fyunck(click) on the draft talk page here: User talk:Navops47/sandbox16 which really should have been aired here so I'm just providing a link to the discussion.--Navops47 (talk) 11:16, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks have added men's winners minus the scores at this point up to 1955.--Navops47 (talk) 13:55, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- Good plan. Have already added a few years in the article but will add the other info to your draft so it can be copied across in one go when finished.--Wolbo (talk) 11:48, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- Hi Wolbo sounds great I have moved an initial draft here User:Navops47/sandbox16 which can be worked on as I'm not the most technical of people have had ago at aligning previous winners tables you could take a look at them to see if they are okay? Have added a brief history section to be changed and expanded upon and will add sources as I go along also I have noticed that this seems to be the case with a number of articles where start off points are from 1970's onward another tournament where the case is similar to this is the Birmingham Classic from what I have been reading it was clearly the Midland Counties Championships for years. --Navops47 (talk) 11:10, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
To summarize hese are the sources which, combined, clearly indicate that we are dealing with two distinct events and not just a (sponsor) name change:
- "Roller Skates and Rackets", p50 – "The first John Player tournament in 1974, with nearly £12,000 in prize money at stake, was combined with the eighty second – and last – South of England Championships."
- "Roller Skates and Rackets", p77 – list of Eastbourne Champions starts with the year 1975 (Virginia Wade)
- Aegon International Eastbourne website – "The long established WTA Premier tournament for women has been held on this site since 1974."
- Official Eastbourne blog – "So another tennis week comes to town. The stars from the WTA and ATP tennis tours descend on Eastbourne for the currently titled Aegon International which has been a highlight of Eastbourne’s events calendar since 1975. The event grew from the demise of the old South of England Championships which staged its 82nd and final tournament in Devonshire Park the previous year."
- Visit Eastbourne website – "June will see Eastbourne’s Devonshire Park open its doors once again to the Aegon International Eastbourne WTA tournament, which has run in Eastbourne since 1975..."
- WTA tournament profile – "Devonshire Park is Eastbourne's oldest park and has hosted lawn tennis since the 1870s. It has been used as a local tennis facility, venue for a number of Davis Cup ties and facility for the AEGON International since the event's inception in 1974."
- "Women's Tennis 1968–84" (John Dolan, 2013), p187 – Comments on the 1974 edition: "Sponsors John Player decided (to) expand the men's draw in Nottingham from 32 to 64 and therefore moved their women's event to Eastbourne, where Rothman's had sponsored the mixed South of England event up until 1972."
- BBC article – "The women's championship, first held in 1974, is rated as a "premier" tournament."
--Wolbo (talk) 16:18, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'll let you two decide since it's not that big a deal. I simply expressed an opinion. To be honest I'm not sold on the list Wolbo has supplied us. It looks to me that we have the Eastbourne Championships, which have an extremely long history. Looking at some of his numbered sources: #6 is wrong as it has NOT been the Aegon International since 1974... that has only been since 2009. Same thing with #3 and #5. We also have the Eastbourne site itself making it sound like one long event at Eastbourne with this article. However Wolbo is correct that Roller Skates and Rackets makes it seem like a different event. But then again, ESPN says Hillyard and Navratilova have the record of 11 wins at Eastbourne. It's a murky situation. Even Wolbo's sources say eastbourne started in 1975, so we wouldn't be able to use Evert's win over Wade in the 1974 John Players Championships. We'd have to put the 1974 Evert/Wade match in the South of England chart. Yet other sources tell us Chris Evert won 3 eastbourne titles. It was this type of thing that was making me lean towards one article for Eastbourne with perhaps darker line between 1974 and 1975. That darker line in the same chart signifying it's the same event yet not quite the same event. It's a bit of a weird one but that's my observations. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:42, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
- Just wondering if this case is similar to this article Sydney International both former state/regional titles both former state/regional open titles, both changed names during open area for sponsorship reasons both now have the location city/town with international in the title both started in the 1880's? and yet Sydney is all together for consistency and Eastbourne isn't on the tennisbase site they have listed the Eastbourne tournament altogether from beginning to 2014 as Eastbourne in the GB tournament search, SOE as (currently Eastbourne) whilst at http://www.tennisforum.com/59-blast-past/455933-official-tournament-winners-event-3.html they list it all together with a historical breakdown period by period Part I. The Early Years: 1883-1914, Part II. Between the Wars: 1919-38, Part III. The Lean Years: 1946-67, Part IV. The Open Era: 1968-present I took your advice about looking at the later's contribution as a starting point when we spoke about me doing an annual season by season pre-68 tours and ensuring I find sources though to back up any inclusions in my drafts.--Navops47 (talk) 07:31, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
- I guess the thing about Sydney (whose chart is backwards by the way) is that we don't have sources telling us that another bigger tournament merged with it in 1975. But tennis tournaments are the strangest things ever. They move to other states and are sometimes considered the same event. They stay in the same venue but change from a challenger to ATP tour level and they are different events. Way different from 1921 to 22 (wimbledon abandons the challenge round), way different from 1924 to 25, way different from 1961 to 62 (server no longer must keep one foot on ground), way different from 1967 to 68, way different from 1971 to 72, way different from 1989 to 90. Welcome to the crazy world of tennis. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:10, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
- I have received a reply to my email from Ken Pollock Chairman Devonshire Park LTC following my email how do you want me to proceed with it?--Navops47 (talk) 09:19, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm guessing the same reply he sent to me and that I mentioned on your sandbox page? He knew less than we do and said that the historic details about DPLTC are not well documented. He asked me that if I find anything out more specific about the history to let him know. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:40, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- My reply is slightly different I asked them specifically if these tournaments are a continuation just with name changes or are they two very distinct and very different tournaments he said the current tournament has evolved from the SOE champs from 1881 as far as the club is concerned I also asked them about a roll of honour which he said they did not start one on a wall in the club house till 1974 and only have a limited collection of paper records of previous winners he also said that they have evidence of a trophy and competition dating from 1879.--Navops47 (talk) 09:55, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, he wants to see the list we have compiled for earlier dates. he said they recently found that 1879 trophy...even though we have the event starting in 1881. I forgot to ask if any names were on the trophy. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:59, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- My reply is slightly different I asked them specifically if these tournaments are a continuation just with name changes or are they two very distinct and very different tournaments he said the current tournament has evolved from the SOE champs from 1881 as far as the club is concerned I also asked them about a roll of honour which he said they did not start one on a wall in the club house till 1974 and only have a limited collection of paper records of previous winners he also said that they have evidence of a trophy and competition dating from 1879.--Navops47 (talk) 09:55, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm guessing the same reply he sent to me and that I mentioned on your sandbox page? He knew less than we do and said that the historic details about DPLTC are not well documented. He asked me that if I find anything out more specific about the history to let him know. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:40, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I have received a reply to my email from Ken Pollock Chairman Devonshire Park LTC following my email how do you want me to proceed with it?--Navops47 (talk) 09:19, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I guess the thing about Sydney (whose chart is backwards by the way) is that we don't have sources telling us that another bigger tournament merged with it in 1975. But tennis tournaments are the strangest things ever. They move to other states and are sometimes considered the same event. They stay in the same venue but change from a challenger to ATP tour level and they are different events. Way different from 1921 to 22 (wimbledon abandons the challenge round), way different from 1924 to 25, way different from 1961 to 62 (server no longer must keep one foot on ground), way different from 1967 to 68, way different from 1971 to 72, way different from 1989 to 90. Welcome to the crazy world of tennis. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:10, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
- Just wondering if this case is similar to this article Sydney International both former state/regional titles both former state/regional open titles, both changed names during open area for sponsorship reasons both now have the location city/town with international in the title both started in the 1880's? and yet Sydney is all together for consistency and Eastbourne isn't on the tennisbase site they have listed the Eastbourne tournament altogether from beginning to 2014 as Eastbourne in the GB tournament search, SOE as (currently Eastbourne) whilst at http://www.tennisforum.com/59-blast-past/455933-official-tournament-winners-event-3.html they list it all together with a historical breakdown period by period Part I. The Early Years: 1883-1914, Part II. Between the Wars: 1919-38, Part III. The Lean Years: 1946-67, Part IV. The Open Era: 1968-present I took your advice about looking at the later's contribution as a starting point when we spoke about me doing an annual season by season pre-68 tours and ensuring I find sources though to back up any inclusions in my drafts.--Navops47 (talk) 07:31, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'll let you two decide since it's not that big a deal. I simply expressed an opinion. To be honest I'm not sold on the list Wolbo has supplied us. It looks to me that we have the Eastbourne Championships, which have an extremely long history. Looking at some of his numbered sources: #6 is wrong as it has NOT been the Aegon International since 1974... that has only been since 2009. Same thing with #3 and #5. We also have the Eastbourne site itself making it sound like one long event at Eastbourne with this article. However Wolbo is correct that Roller Skates and Rackets makes it seem like a different event. But then again, ESPN says Hillyard and Navratilova have the record of 11 wins at Eastbourne. It's a murky situation. Even Wolbo's sources say eastbourne started in 1975, so we wouldn't be able to use Evert's win over Wade in the 1974 John Players Championships. We'd have to put the 1974 Evert/Wade match in the South of England chart. Yet other sources tell us Chris Evert won 3 eastbourne titles. It was this type of thing that was making me lean towards one article for Eastbourne with perhaps darker line between 1974 and 1975. That darker line in the same chart signifying it's the same event yet not quite the same event. It's a bit of a weird one but that's my observations. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:42, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
GeorgeTolk74
editReturn the Russian flag to Kasatkina. She was and is a citizen of the Russian Federation. Otherwise, you are not a “free encyclopedia”, but a CIA tail 185.190.43.31 (talk) 07:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)