Talk:Economics of climate change mitigation

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 January 2020 and 30 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): JaimePublicEconomics.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 20:26, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 August 2020 and 5 September 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tortraa.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 20:26, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Imanrahul, Ja9young, Yjmlow, Jeremy.lan. Peer reviewers: Colby.c, Gokulramadoss, Geggybee1, JamesM.Queen.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 20:05, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Welfare

I think that Each individual's or country's welfare, Uj, is a function of its own consumption, Cj... is obvious nonsense. It certainly isn't true of this individual William M. Connolley (talk) 22:35, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Welfare in economics is deffianlty not limited to consumption or monetary worth. Leisure, culture, environment, freedom, health, education etc should all be considered. A simple google scholar search for 'welfare economics' or 'measuring welfare' will show this. Or this article is one that I found when I did this: http://publishing.eur.nl/ir/repub/asset/7954/1991JEctrics.pdf . Catonz (talk) 22:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Capitalise title?

Should the title be capitalised? Catonz (talk) 22:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

No, article titles are styled in sentence case on Wikipedia, in solidarity with those of us who don't want to slow down from the shift keys. Why Other (talk) 02:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Magnitudes for carbon prices

I've been trying to ask about this at WP:RDS, here (now archived), here, and here.

Is transferring the $500 billion/year of fossil subsidies to wind and water sufficient, too much, or not enough? Should we try to arbitrage against the expected prices in 2020? Why Other (talk) 04:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Per Dr. Jacobson, this is related to Eqn. 3 in http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/fossil/ClimRespUpdJGR%201.pdf

"[calculate] the time-dependent change in CO2 mixing ratio from a given anthropogenic emission rate, [and with that] the time-dependent difference in mixing ratio resulting from two different emission levels by subtracting results from the equation solved twice. Note that chi in the equation is the anthropogenic portion of the mixing ratio (this is explained in the text) and units of E need to be converted to mixing ratio. The conversion is given in the paper."

Why Other (talk) 21:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Use of subsidies

I've removed the following sentence:

Scientists have advanced a plan to power 100% of the world's energy with wind, hydroelectric, and solar power by the year 2030,[22][23] recommending transfer of energy subsidies from fossil fuel to renewable, and a price on carbon reflecting its cost for flood and related extreme weather expenses.

I do not think that it is appropriate to offer a selective treatment of the literature on climate change policy. These suggestions for policy relate only to the work of a few researchers. Citing their work above others is, in my opinion, biased. If suggestions are to cited, they should offer a broad overview of the entire climate policy literature, e.g., see Gupta et al 2007. Enescot (talk) 16:07, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

First of all, thanks very for your help with the Barker et al. reference.

One of the references you removed, Jacobson, M.Z. (2009) "Review of solutions to global warming, air pollution, and energy security" Energy and Environmental Science 2:148-73 doi 10.1039/b809990c (review), is a peer reviewed secondary source which per WP:PSTS is the highest quality possible for a Wikipedia article. And it is in fact a survey of the entire climate policy literature, highlighting the optimum solution which was then published in the popular press (the other Scientific American reference.) I did a literature search to make sure that all of the peer review articles citing it do not take any major issues, and to make sure that there were no errata, corrections, or retractions. Based on the fact that the Review is still held in high esteem in the scientific literature, I am going to replace that passage. I found a better courtesy link for the Scientific American article.

One of the things I found when looking for citing articles was this conference paper on "Carbon-Neutral Transportation Fuels From off-Peak Wind and CO2" which strongly supports the idea of building out excess wind capacity, to make transportation fuel from, e.g., natural gas and coal plant waste carbon, and is thus in line with the primary thrust of the wind-water-solar plan. The huge advantage of that method as an alternative to carbon capture and storage is a reduction in the prevalence of resource wars. Why Other (talk) 20:30, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I have no problem with the quality of the source. My main concern is with presenting a balanced treatment of the literature. For instance, Barker et al (2001) make reference to the possible effects of carbon leakage due to the removal of fossil fuel subsidies. You could also take the view that the use of subsidies, even for renewables, is economically inefficient. If the article is to cover policy-prescriptive suggestions, I think it should cover all areas, e.g., suggestions for sectoral targets, technology transfer, etc.

I'm not knowledgeable enough address this possible problem of bias, i.e., of only citing one paper. Therefore I've put in an expansion tag to the section on subsidies. Since the cited paper is policy prescriptive, I think it needs to be placed in its own sub-section. I also feel that referring to the authors' names directly is preferable to referring to them as scientists. Enescot (talk) 14:08, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the expansion tag. But it doesn't surprise me that there might be an optimal direction to go in, or that we can choose to go in that direction to a variable extent, i.e., by how many subsidy dollars we transfer from fossil to renewable sources. The atmospheric greenhouse gas concentration controls opacity in the blackbody infrared, which in turn governs the amount of precipitation and thus money we will be spending on floods. So it should be possible to derive a dollar amount which needs to be transfered from fossil to renewable subsidies in order to minimize total financial losses. The most interesting question may be: Is that figure more or less what we are currently spending on fossil subsidies, and if so by how much?

On the other hand, the Jacobson (2009) literature review is a summary of the literature on policy prescriptions for subsidies, isn't it? Why Other (talk) 02:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I didn't know the Jacobson article was a literature review. Despite this, I feel that it is important to attribute the statement over the use of subsidies. My impression is that economists rarely agree on anything. I'd be surprised if there is a consensus about the redirection of fossil fuel subsidies to renewables. Some economists, might, for example, want those fossil fuel subsidies to be phased out, with the resources freed up used to cut income tax. Enescot (talk) 15:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Carbon leakage and subsidies

I've moved the bit on carbon leakage and subsidies from the “policy suggestions” section to the introduction of the "energy subsidies" section. The Barker et al statement is analytical, and not policy prescriptive, i.e., it does not say that fossil fuel subsidies should or should not be removed, rather it presents a possible effect of their removal. This contrasts with the Jacobson and Delucchi paper, which makes a specific policy suggestion, i.e., that fossil fuel subsidies be moved to renewables. Enescot (talk) 15:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Economics of climate change mitigation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150321002817/http://www.startribune.com/world/135469408.html to http://www.startribune.com/world/135469408.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130801031800/http://edition2a.intellimag.com/?id=ssee-july2011 to http://edition2a.intellimag.com/?id=ssee-july2011
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120113033748/http://www.smithschool.ox.ac.uk:80/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Climate-Negotiations-report_Final.pdf to http://www.smithschool.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Climate-Negotiations-report_Final.pdf
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110717152152/http://www.econ.cam.ac.uk/rstaff/grubb/publications/J36.pdf to http://www.econ.cam.ac.uk/rstaff/grubb/publications/J36.pdf
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:07, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Discount Rates (UC Berkeley CBE 195 Spring 2017)

Under Discount Rates Sub-Section

• Elaborate more on what a high and low discount rate entails.
• Effect on current and future generations
• Assumptions made to support a high or low discount rate.

Ja9young (talk) 19:13, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Recent Edit (April 28, 2017)

• added a sentence about what too high a discount rate entails at the end of the first paragraph
• a hypothetical example on what a high and low discount entails
• a discount rate and statistic table; sourced from an EPA Technical Support Document (recent revision Aug/Dec 2016)
• assumptions for estimating high and low discount rates; the last paragraph of this sub-section

Ja9young (talk) 17:49, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Some of the sentences in this section, particularly in your hypothetical example, are pretty informal. For example, "Let’s say in 50 years, you are promised..." doesn't read like an encyclopedia article. Maybe try rewording it. Also, the fact that you use the word "will" so often instead of "would" in the hypothetical example could confuse readers and make them think you're listing actual predictions instead of just making up numbers to illustrate the point. So I'd suggest changing the tense of all of those as well. Gokulramadoss (talk) 22:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I like the simplification on the end of the first paragraph. Their is some confusion in the what a high discount rate entails" section and there may be conflicting information. I suggest trying to simplify the wording. The table is a good way of representing the data. JamesM.Queen (talk) 01:17, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Economics of climate change mitigation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100410171605/http://go.worldbank.org/BKLQ9DSDU0 to http://go.worldbank.org/BKLQ9DSDU0
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/PDF%20files/ReviewSolGW09.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:04, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

No actual examples

There don't seem to be any actual examples at the section "The mitigation portfolio". Some things that could be useful here:

• comparison of carbon offsetting options (ie reforestation, ocean reforestaion, other safe climate engineering options) vs emission prevention measures (carbon capture and storage of effluents)
• comparison of car electrification (conversion to electric) vs drop-in biofuels and associated infrastructure changes
• comparison of options to reduce GHG emissions from agriculture (ie reducing the greenhouse gas emissions from livestock (ruminants) --> are genetic selection, immunization, rumen defaunation, outcompetition of methanogenic archaea with acetogens,introduction of methanotrophic bacteria into the rumen, diet modification and grazing management
• ...

Genetics4good (talk) 07:07, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Should "definitions" section be deleted?

It does not seem to help with understanding the article I think.Chidgk1 (talk) 17:44, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

deleted Chidgk1 (talk) 14:24, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Paris Agreement, Carbon Pricing and Carbon Tax Section Creations

I am planning to add a Paris Agreement section under the Kyoto Protocol section to update it. Also, I am going to create carbon pricing and carbon tax subsections under the Price Signals section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JaimePublicEconomics (talk • contribs) 04:49, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Check POV language in Discount rates > Controversy section

I noticed some awfully biased language in the section Economics of climate change mitigation#Controversy. This is the first paragraph:

Discounting is a relatively controversial issue in both climate change mitigation and environmental economics due to the ethical implications of valuing future generations less than present ones. Non-economists often find it difficult to grapple with the idea that thousands of dollars of future costs and benefits can be valued at less than a cent in the present after discounting. This devaluation can lead to overconsumption and "strategic ignorance" where individuals choose to ignore information that would prevent the overconsumption of resources. Contrary to this, orthodox economists concerned with equality argue that it is important to distribute society's resources equitably across time, and since they generally, rightly or wrongly predict positive economic growth, despite global climate change, they argue that current generations should damage the environment in which future generations live so that the current ones can consume and produce more to equalize the (rightly or wrongly) assumed gains to the future from a supposed growing net GDP. That being said, not all economists share this opinion as notable economist Frank Ramsey once described discounting as "ethically indefensible."

I already removed some language with a sarcastic tone that seems to discredit the argument it's talking about: Contrary to this, orthodox economists have likewise provided only ethical or normative arguments of their own, suddenly concerned with equality (and flouting, by their own definition, efficiency) they uncharacteristically argue that it is important to distribute society's resources equitably (but only across time).... Can others here please help me clean up this paragraph by making sure that the statements neutrally and accurately describe the views they are citing? Qzekrom (she/her • talk) 20:54, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

References

Need elaboration, clarification or rephrasing for wordings in Sec. Barriers to change

"they are regulatable by governments, and don't have as much power as many large states (or groups of such) which e.g. have capacities of law enforcement and military, customs, legal frameworks and for business-, media-, education-, global-, trade- and industrial policies." I just couldn't understand what the author is trying to express. Thanks for your kind attention. ThomasYehYeh (talk) 12:50, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I used the tool "who wrote that" to track this addition down to this edit on 13 June 2022 (it was originally in the climate change mitigation article). So I am pinging User:Prototyperspective, asking them to please make this sentence easier to understand. Thanks. EMsmile (talk) 13:56, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Didn't hear back from User:Prototyperspective, so I've done some copy editing myself now to make it easier to understand. EMsmile (talk) 12:44, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. ThomasYehYeh (talk) 13:49, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Honestly I don't understand what could possibly not be understood about the sentence after a second read. I do see how what I write is sometimes a bit convoluted but in this case it's just a list of examples for such capacities of states so I wasn't sure how I could improve it a lot myself. Basically all the sentence says is that companies are regulatable by governments and are not as powerful as states in regards to instigating changes. Maybe that part should be split into multiple short sentences. Thanks for the feedback / edits anyway. Prototyperspective (talk) 22:07, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

That section was definitely not written in a way that is understandable for our target audience (the general public). A long listing of examples also doesn't help. I've done some copy editing in an effort to make it easier to understand. Please check. I am not sure if the BBC article that is quoted in the second paragraph is really all that suitable (text source integrity?). EMsmile (talk) 09:28, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Future plans for this article?

This article has very low pageviews (around 20 per month) and seems to me outdated, overlapping with other articles and generally not very good. I am wondering if we are better off stripping out all the outdated stuff, then merging into economic analysis of climate change and maybe some parts into climate change mitigation? I think a stand-alone article on this topic is not overly useful, especially not one of poor quality. Pinging User:Richarit. EMsmile (talk) 09:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with merging (however I won't have time to help). Quite a lot of the text is not about the economic analysis but is about policy. Some of the text could also be merged with the more visited article on carbon budget, for example the section on cost sharing. Richarit (talk) 10:25, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

That's an interesting idea about moving content to carbon budget but the section on "cost sharing" uses mainly two refs from 1996. That's from 30 years ago; outdated perhaps? Maybe better covered with more up to date references in other Wikipedia articles already? EMsmile (talk) 21:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Too difficult for me but good luck to anyone tackling this and there are plenty of sources at https://www.economist.com/topics/climate-change Chidgk1 (talk) 13:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Also, I think the whole section on "Policies and approaches to reduce emissions" could probably be deleted. It's included with more up to date content at climate change mitigation and greenhouse gas emissions. EMsmile (talk) 22:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC)