Talk:Economy of Middle-earth/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Reidgreg (talk · contribs) 01:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Nominator: Chiswick Chap (talk) at 17:27, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Article links: nominated revision, reviewed revision, promoted revision

Looks like a fun and interesting article. I'll try to get a review posted in the next few days. – Reidgreg (talk) 01:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks! Looking forward to it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Great little article, just a couple minor points before promoting. I made some minor edits to the article myself (MOS, reference tidy, and layout of the Beowulf excerpt). Feel free to revert anything you disagree with and we can discuss it as part of this review. Full review follows. – Reidgreg (talk) 20:09, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you.

Criterion

I will update the checklist as progress is made.

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Check layout of Beowulf excerpt and treatment of fiction in image captions

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   Earwig for quotations and titles only.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   Minor misrepresentation detected in a couple quotations

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Review comments

Prose & layout

Prose is really good! I only found a few things to comment on.

Many thanks!

• The Beowulf excerpt, with that four-column approach, was using up too much width on my browser setup and it looked a bit messy. I tried reformatting it into two columns. Feel free to revert.
  • I've centred the table so there are no issues with squeezing the text: it's much nicer to have each metrical line on a line to itself.
    • Alright. Approved I suppose the ellipsis is there for a similar reason, to explicitly indicate that the second half of the last metrical line is omitted rather than simply ending at the full stop (period).
      • Yes, Anglo-Saxon poetry allowed sentences to end mid-line, at the caesura.

• the loss of horses and ponies stolen from The Prancing Pony inn. I'm not sure that there's a good reason to italicize the name of a building. (I realize that the GA Bree (Middle-earth) does so.) Proper names get word capitalization which is usually enough emphasis and does not require italics (MOS:BADITALICS).
  • Removed the italics. Verified

• In section 'Resistance' there is a quote: "invite the reader into a compelling and remarkably complete pre-modern world, saturated with ... values .. of respect ... nature, and ... the spirit", retaining "personal integrity and responsibility and [not] decanted into a soulless calculus of financial profit-and-loss." I did not see the underlined part in the source. Suggest removing it and replacing with [of] or somesuch. Actually, see below under Referencing 14.
  • The words are present exactly as quoted in the printed book, Curry 1998, p. 144, which I have in front of me. I can send you a photocopy if need be. I've extended the quote there very slightly to spell out "relationships of respect with each other and nature".
    • I did notice that that there were quite a few editions of this publication. AGF. Accepted

Referencing & verifiability

For the most part this is a checklist as I went through the sources. Citation numbers are as of this revision.

1 – Beowulf quote and translation

Noted.

2 – "Culver 2013". AGF for offline reliable source; saw a bit from a Google Books snippet view

Noted.

3 – on jstor. I wonder if maybe these two citations should be moved down to the end of the following sentence?

Moved.

4 – "Fraser" the pdf download did not want to display for me but I was able to copy the text into another program.

Noted.

5 – the url was corrupted; repaired.

Noted, thanks.

6 – webpage seems to have moved but I found it at the internet archive. Added archive links.

Noted.

7 and 8 – "Lacon 1994" and "Kelly 2016". The inline citations to these may have to be moved around a bit to properly cover the material. For example, the quote "the old Northern European world of fairy-tale and a relatively modern world represented in the Shire" is currently cited to "Lacon 1994" but actually appears in "Kelly 2016".N

• On closer inspection, that quote is problematic. The source actually states: "the old Northern world of fairytale and the modern world of his readers" So it's talking about the modern audience of readers and not (in that passage) attaching modernity to the Shire.
  • That's a different place in the same text. Kelly states directly on page 115: "Middle-earth is a combination of two different worlds: the old Northern European world of fairy-tale and a relatively modern world represented in the Shire. Aside from the physical characteristics of their respective inhabitants, the distinction between the two worlds is perhaps best characterized by the differences in their economic infrastructure." I've repeated the Kelly ref by the quotation. Kelly (pp. 114–115) attributes the analysis to Shippey 2001 pp. 47–48 (in different words), which I have here, so I've cited that too. Verified Good changes.

9 - on jstor.

• Before reading the source, I presumed that Sharkey's unjust rule was a rule of economics developed by an economist named Sharkey. No wonder I couldn't find an article on it! Would you consider changing it to → under the unjust leadership of Sharkey ?
  • Edited. Verified

10 – Found the 2003 paperback edition of this has snippet view on Google Books. Can verify about breeding orcs who fight in daylight. AGF on remainder.

Noted.

11 – on Project Muse

Noted.

12 – on Oxford Academic. "weirdly cloned" and "high explosives". Combined these three cover the material.

Noted.

13 – "McLarty 2006" on Brill, page 177

Noted.

14 – "Curry 1998" on Google Books, verified quotes pages 62–63, 13–14, and 131.

• Slight problem with the quotation "in contemporary terms, the domination of financial and technological magic over enchantment ... is something we see confirmed everywhere in Middle-earth today ... [and that] Progress is not only good for us but unavoidable". The source has "just as we continue to hear a great deal about how all this Progress is not only good for us, but inevitable [unavoidable]". The differences in the underlined parts change the meaning of the last part of the quote. The source is saying that "Progress is good and inevitable" is a popular topic or slogan (alluding to the influence of advertising and public relations equivalents), while the article reads as if this is a confirmed fact.
  • Not sure what you have here; I have the 1998 book in front of me, and the whole of that quotation is verbatim on page 74, printed exactly as quoted.
    • There were a few different editions listed at Google Books, not all with preview. I used the 1997 and 2004 and searched with snippet view. (I had the last word wrong, it is unavoidable.)  Question: What does your hardcopy have in the ellipsis between "Middle-earth today" and "Progress"?
      • "today, just as we continue to hear about how all this Progress" — not terribly quotable, really.
        • Okay, so it is essentially the same (missing "a great deal" emphasis). To try and re-explain what I meant in the first part of this thread, while the quoted words are each taken from the source, I feel the ellipsis has changed the meaning. Faithfully reproducing a quotation means following the principle of minimal change (see MOS:PMC: do not omit text where doing so would remove important context or alter the meaning of the text.)

stating that "in contemporary terms, the domination of financial and technological magic over enchantment ... is something we see confirmed everywhere in Middle-earth today ... [and that] Progress is not only good for us but unavoidable".

And in contemporary terms, the domination of financial and technological magic over enchantment – often through exploiting it (something at which advertising and public relations are masters) – is something we see confirmed everywhere in Middle-earth today, just as we continue to hear a great deal about how all this Progress is not only good for us, but unavoidable in any case.

—article text —2004 ed p.67

The first and third underlined parts are easily removed without changing the meaning. But the second underlined part informs us of how the non-underlined parts on either side of it relate to each other. Curry isn't stating that 'Progress is good' but that it is frequently heard from others. That Curry chose the wording that one is seen confirmed everywhere while the other is heard about is suggestive that they are in several ways unequal.

What about changing: [and that] → [along with the sentiment that] ? – Reidgreg (talk) 02:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

• Done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 03:41, 8 March 2024 (UTC) Verified

• There's another quote I mentioned earlier under Prose. Looking at it again, Curry notes three values in jeopardy: interpersonal relationships, nature, and the spirit. To preserve the intended meaning of the source, perhaps it would be better to change "of respect" → "for relationships"?
  • Um, it's a direct quotation, so I can't change that, but I've added a gloss.
    • Okay, so now it reads In Curry's view, Tolkien's Middle-earth writings "invite the reader into a compelling and remarkably complete pre-modern world, saturated with ... values .. relationships of respect with each other and nature, and ... the spirit", retaining "personal integrity and responsibility and [not] decanted into a soulless calculus of financial profit-and-loss." I'm concerned that the "values .. relationships" part doesn't read well and that it is a bit long now, right on the forty-word threshold for block quotes.  Question: What about: "saturated with ... values [for] relationships ... with each other, and nature, and ... the spirit"
      • Done. Verified

15 – "Carney 2013" Used five times in the same paragraph (the first two sentences also covered by 16). The clickbait on the CNBC website forced the text into too small of a column so that much of it was not visible; I copied to another program to read it.

16 – "Woolley 2012" Nice.

17 – I was blocked by a subscription the first time I tried to retrieve this but then got through the second time.

Noted.

18 – "Clinton 2016".

Noted.

19 – "Stuart 2022". Found this on Springer via Wikipedia Library (link). Didn't see where the source was supporting the cited material but 18 covers most of it.

Noted.

20 – "Salon" This source also explicitly calls it a "parody". (I did not spot this in the above sources.) However, I didn't find any mention of economics to cover It portrays Mordor as an economically progressive society. It may be that the placement of citations 18–20 are off a little bit.

Edited. Verified

Breadth & focus

Appears to have good coverage of the available sources on the topic.

Thank upi/

Neutrality

A couple issues with quotations noted above.

Addressed there.

Stability

No evidence of edit warring.

Noted.

Media

3 images, all on Commons, tagged with CCSA licences.

As for captions, I'm a little cautious about separating the fictional from the real. With the third image's caption, there is a brief statement, an evocative quote, and a description of the real-world scene depicted. Could something similar be done for the first image's caption? Perhaps there isn't a suitable quote, but I'd appreciate if the first sentence was clear in its describing fiction.

• Added a mention of the novel in the first image's caption, so the point is clear. Verified

Other areas to improve

Although not part of the GA criteria, here are some other areas you might want to improve:

• The essay (not a guideline) at WP:QUOTE recommends that all quotations be immediately followed by an inline citation for verification. If you look at the third quotation example on that page, it shows citations to the same source for each of multiple quotations in a paragraph. Some editors will look for this at FAC (along with page numbers).
  • I've separated the Curry quotations into separate refs.

• I should have run "Fix dead links" from the page history to get website archive links in place. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get those links in place.
  • I just ran the "Expand citations" tool, which may have done the same thing.

• If you want a citation for the quote box for The Last Ringbearer, the full text (English) is at the Internet Archive https://archive.org/stream/TheLastRingbearerSecondEdition/The%20Last%20Ringbearer%20Second%20Edition_djvu.txt
  • Why not, added.

Noted.

General discussion

Just a few little tweaks and this should be good. I'll try to respond to any questions on this page or otherwise let me know below if you're finished and would like me to go over your changes. – Reidgreg (talk) 20:09, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Reidgreg: Many thanks. I believe I've addressed all your comments. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:44, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap: I have some lingering questions about the quotes in the Resistance section. – Reidgreg (talk) 05:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Reidgreg: All done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:15, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap: I hope you understand my concern a little better this time, though I'm repeating myself a bit. – Reidgreg (talk) 02:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Reidgreg: I hope so too. I have made the exact change you asked for, which I hope closes the matter. Chiswick Chap (talk) 03:43, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

 Passed GA Criteria, promoted. – Reidgreg (talk) 01:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)