Talk:Edith Stein

EB Article

We have a problem here: this article is clearly derived from the EB article, with most formulations copied verbatim. I'll start to change the most egregious ones. The other contributions of User:ClaudeMuncey need to be checked as well. AxelBoldt 12:16 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There was a specific reason Hitler ordered the arrest of all so-called "non-Aryan" Catholics in the Netherlands. I'm adding it. What defines an Aryan? What is the "EB article?" --Maryevelyn 03:59, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

On what basis can Edith Stein be labelled a "feminist"? - Nunh-huh 04:04, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Missing in the article on Edith Stein

A list of Edith Stein's main works is missing in the article. Her main work, Finite and Eternal Being (Endliches und Ewiges Sein), written after becoming a Carmelite, should be mentioned. It is an important synthesis of modern phenomenology and medieval scholastisism (Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus). Helge Erik Solberg (heesolbe@online.no)

Saint Teresa Benedicta or Saint Edith Stein?

The article says that she was "known after her reception into the Carmelite Order as Teresa Benedicta of the Cross and canonized under the latter name in 1998". Is that true? While she was still only "Blessed", she was referred to as "Blessed Teresa Benedicta of the Cross", but I think that when she was canonized, she was referred to as "Saint Edith Stein". Not that there was any Church ruling on it – it just happened that way. Does anyone know if my impression is correct? Ann Heneghan ^(talk) 22:31, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Although gets called Saint Edith Stein, I think Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross is more correct and official because it is the name used in her canonization homily [1] by Pope John Paul II and in an apostolic letter [2] about making her co-patroness of Europe the year after. GhostGirl 19:48, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Some suggestions about formatting can be found here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Saints. They may help answer some "Saint" questions. :) Elonka 04:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not a big issue. Saint Bernadette of Lourdes was probably formally canonised as "Saint Marie Bernarde", her religious name in the convent at Nevers, but she's universally known by her baptismal name Bernadette. JackofOz 05:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

When she is invocated in the Litany of Saints or mentioned in the Anaphora or the missale, she's referred to "Heilige Teresia Benedicta vom Kreuz" ([3]). HTH --Turris Davidica (talk) 09:04, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Polish Saint?

Edith Stein was born in Breslau, Germany, she was German of Jewish religion, converted to Catholicism, the pope canonized her as co-patroness of Europe.

Yet Wikipedia states: Edith Stein was a Polish saint. Why ??? MG 3/22/2006

Good question! Any answers out there? Dr. Dan 15:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Probably, some Pole confused his dreams with reality.

217.85.110.56 23:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Breslau, Gemany is now Wroclaw, Poland.There you have it. And I'm Polish, thanks very much. Eddisford 23:35, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Some clean-up

Redacted the "martyr" controversy at the end, which had started to wander; it still needs at least one valid citation. (The deleted link was not specific.) Also cleaned up that opening paragraph. Since the article title is "Edith Stein," the article should begin with that name. This way the paragraph can flow smoothly and concisely from her birth to canonization. The best way to deal with the was-she-a-German-or-Polish-saint question is not to use either. J M Rice 04:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Renunciation of faith at 13?

I thought that was a bit of a stretch, and did a Google search. EWTN, of all places, does not mention a renunciation of faith, only that she converted some years later, and Catholic Education says something similar (she no longer practiced). The Vatican claims a conscious giving up of religion, but does not date it; it is most certainly a later recollection, as it is an attributed quote.

Only American Catholic adds an active voice to this, and frankly, it seems a little too sensational in the interests of justifying her sainthood through a life that was apparently more than ordinary.

Are there any objections to removal of that sentence based on a lack of tangible evidence to support the specificity of the claim? MSJapan 00:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there are. Although I don't know any English source there are many German-language sources confirming this fact like this one. Besides, it doesn't seem too sensational because there is really nothing sensational about this.--Sokrat3000 09:49, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I should restate: in effect, this is a question of semantics - there is a big difference between "stopped practicing religion" and "renounced faith". The article says the latter, which I think is a pretty major thing for someone to do at the age of 13, and that claim of 13 is not supported by any English sources, not even the Vatican. Nor is it supported by your German citation - the link gives no solid dates regarding her atheism, and no dated indication that that happened at any point prior to 1922.

I find this article (listed in your citation) interesting, and I will follow up on it when I am at the library, but I figured I would point it out, because it may have a different claim. Carroll, James. 1999. “The Saint and the Holocaust: In canonizing Edith Stein, has the Church misrepresented her life, and history?”, The New Yorker 7.6.1999, S. 52-57.

And James Carroll has a book on this subject as well, available from Powell's here. So, there's probably more to this. Now, I may or may not be right, but there's certainly more to this. MSJapan 10:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

One other quick note - atheist or not, Edith Stein was still considered Jewish (as far as anybody on either side was concerned) until she converted. MSJapan 10:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Edith-Stein Zentrum, Balingen

Just an additional note: there is a kindergarten in the Edith-Stein Zentrum, in Balingen Germany, in addition to the schools mentioned in the main article.

Volunteered to die?

I vaguely remember hearing that she asked to die first before others in the camp. --Gbleem 13:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

• I think that you are thinking of Maximilian Kolbe who came forward to die in place of a man who had a family. T.E. Goodwin 20:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Order by Hitler

It seems unlikely to me that Hitler made a retaliatory order to arrest monks and nuns of Jewish descent. I think this order is more likely to have been made by Arthur_Seyss-Inquart, the head of the (Dutch) Gestapo, or Hanns Albin Rauter. Andries 02:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

St. Edith Stein should redirect here.Catholic monarchist 15:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Sounds a bit Babelfishy

Not quite sure what this means: "But she was rejected as a woman with further habilitational studies at the University of Freiburg [2]and failed to successfully reach in a habilitational study "Psychische Kausalität" (Psychic Causality) at the University of Göttingen in 1919." Can anyone clarify? Tsuguya (talk) 14:44, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

A bit obscure to be sure, and the footnote sheds no light. I've rewritten based on pw:fr, which goes into some detail. Sparafucil (talk) 06:48, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Is this what you rewrote? "But because she was a woman Husserl did not support her submission to the University of Freiburg or her habilitational thesis (a prerequisite for an academic chair)[2] and her other thesis ("Psychische Kausalität" [Psychic Causality] at the University of Göttingen in 1919) were likewise rejected." It is a bit unclear, unless "or" is a misprint for "of", and "were" should be "was".--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 14:07, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Both guesses correct! Sparafucil (talk) 21:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

"Jewish folkish monopoly"

What is "Jewish folkish monopoly on World War II suffering"? --174.90.78.3 (talk) 17:17, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

circumstances of Death.

I looked it up on the Yad Vashem database http://www.yadvashem.org/wps/portal/IY_HON_Welcome . There are at least three entries that match the biographic data of the Edith Stein at hand.

http://207.232.26.141/YADVASHEM/09032124_294_3632/69.jpg

http://207.232.26.141/YADVASHEM/18031752_266_4824/6.jpg

http://207.232.26.141/YADVASHEM/11031955_657_3913/223.jpg

They all agree on the place and date of death, but non mentions "gas chamber". So either the "gas chamber" claim should be removed. Or at least it should be said that there is no proof for this. --41.151.107.188 (talk) 10:16, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

She did not receive a number upon arrival at Auschwitz. Historians have since long time come to the conclusion that people who did not receive a number upon arrival where going directly from the train to the gas chamber where they were killed the day of their arrival. There is no reason to remove the "gas chamber" claim as it fits with the realty. --Lebob (talk) 13:22, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Introduction and translation of St. Thomas Aquinas

The sentence "Stein was known for translating Saint Thomas Aquinas book, Quaestiones Disputatae de Veritata into the German language" has been repeatedly inserted in the introduction of the article, although this fact has already been mentioned in the article below under "life" where it belongs to. First of all, mentioning this just after "She was canonized by Pope John Paul II in 1998" sounds a little bit odd. Furthermore, in my opinion this means to put a singular fact out of her work. Why just the translation of St. Thomas? There are a lot of things Stein was known for also, e.g. her own writings, for example Scientia crucis. This has nothing to do with some sort of "ivory tower" but with not putting a singular aspect above many others-.-Turris Davidica (talk) 14:54, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Teresa or Teresia?

This article uses the highly non-standard form "Teresia Benedicta" instead of the normal English-language form "Teresa Benedicta". From the article history, this appears to be down to a single editor, Turris Davidica, citing German-language sources for this version of the name, and even stating, in an edit summary, that "the church refers to her as Teresia Benedicta vom Kreuz". Well, yes, it does indeed – in German. In English, she is referred to as "Teresa". Every English-language reference and external link in the article, without exception, calls her "Teresa" (or, in one instance, "Theresa"), without the intrusive "i", unless referring to her name in other languages (e.g. "Teresia Benedicta a Cruce"). As to how "the church refers to her", see the English-language Vatican website and the website of the Catholic Church in England & Wales. Vilĉjo (talk)

Indeed I referred to both Latin and German sources. As you can see here, she signed the holy card at the day of her investiture with Teresia Benedicta (a cruce) [4]. Maybe we should mention her religious name in the introduction as well and change the English form to Teresa if Teresia looks intrusive.--Turris Davidica (talk) 18:01, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Turris' comment misses the point of using the standard English form of a name in this version of Wikipedia. How Stein signed her name is not relevant, the same way as the use of Ignazio used by Ignatius of Loyola for himself is not rendered in that native form here. Daniel the Monk (talk) 19:17, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Daniel, iMHO you are missing the point that Teresia Benedicta a cruce was the religious name she actually took – of course this info is relevant.--Turris Davidica (talk) 14:34, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Turris, I'm entirely in favour of your suggestion of mentioning her name in religion, in its original language form, in the lead, and then using the form Teresa elsewhere. Which I see has now been done. A sensible compromise, I think. Vilĉjo (talk) 17:22, 4 August 2013 (UTC) (Apologies for not signing my earlier comment – I have now done so.)

I have no problem with giving the native form of her religious name, as Vilĉjo says. As it differs from the standard English version of the name, I simply object to using it as the main form for an entry. Turris, you are missing the point that her religious name is being given. It's just being rendered in another language, the one we are using here. Daniel the Monk (talk) 22:42, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

My point was just one way of saying that both the German "Teresia Benedicta vom Kreuz" and the English "Teresa Benedicta of the Cross" are translations since she actually chose "Teresia Benedicta a cruce" as it has been common either for all Carmelite convents at that time or at least for some of them. I'm glad the proposal pleases.--Turris Davidica (talk) 11:42, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Edith Stein's national identity and other controversies

Hi!: from the written work by Edith Stein, it's clear that she was convinced of being a Prussian, region now under the control of the Polish government, but actual identity of this homeland ('Heimat' in German), may be hard to fix. Alfred Jarry started his comedy: 'Ubu roi', with: 'L'histoire se deroule en Pologne, c'est a dire, nulle part' -Action takes place in Poland, meaning: nowhere- this is because lacking any geographical accident that defines 'the Polish land', its identity is linked to the people ruling in the region in each time. The science of 'Geopolitics' may have two postulates as summary: 'The one controlling the island of Europe will dominate Europe', and: 'The one dominating Europe will dominate the world'. The 'Island of Europe' is Poland.

Regading the ways to consider the death of Edith Stein as a consequence of her Roman Catholic, her Christian Faith, I'd say that her merit was 'Solidarity', as she and her sister Rose went out of another European nation convent where both requested shelter from nazis, Rose, sister of Edith, had no chance to stay there, perhaps because Rose was not a nun, and both went in the end to Echt, in the Netherlands, just 34 km away from the German border, the Netherlands were occupied by the Wehrmacht in 1940, it was escaping out of the frying pan to fall into the fire. The reason why Edit Stein died was most probably her solidarity with her sister, this is where her martyrdom may lie, and also as this individual arrest of Israelites was in revenge to a local Dutch Bishop having made declarations against the nazis, but both were not arrested only as Catholics, but as having an Israelite past. If Edith had not decided to stay close to her sister, she would have been able to find shelter in a Swiss convent, preserving her life, Edit Stein may be considered a martyr of solidarity above everything. Her writings of the first epoch are quite paganistic in content and images. Salut †--Jgrosay (talk) 15:40, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

This is not quite true. As we know from the history of the Carmelite order and other sources that the sisters of Le Pâquier in Switzerland spent too much time in obtaining the necessary papers and thinking about how to accomodate the sisters Stein. They simply didn't estimate the degree of danger approximately.--Turris Davidica (talk) 18:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Two info boxes?

Maybe I'm missing something, but why does this article have two info boxes? I haven't seen any guidelines that suggest that's a possibility before, though I'm not exactly WikiGod of all knowledge :) Luthien22 (talk) 04:04, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Stein's nursing service in 1915

I've added a sentence in the Academic section to document Stein's service for most of 1915 as a wartime Red Cross nurse, which according to Alasdair MacIntyre informed her dissertation's treatment of the topic of empathy. Since professional nursing research is beginning to recognize Stein's contribution to their profession, e.g., Määttä, S. M. (2006). "Closeness and distance in the nurse-patient relation. The relevance of Edith Stein's concept of empathy." Nursing Philosophy 7(1): 3-10, it is important to document Stein's nursing service, which was heretofore absent from the Article.Ajschorschiii (talk) 02:57, 20 October 2015 (UTC) I've also added Stein to nursing categories for German, military, and researchers.Ajschorschiii (talk) 03:20, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Article lead section - reduce number of paragraphs

Greetings, Asking for help to update lead section (per WP:MOS max of 4). Currently very well written & difficult to reduce as each paragraph stands on it's own merits. Regards,  JoeHebda (talk)  14:26, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

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Teresa/Teresia

"Teresia" is the Latin (Italian?) spelling of "Teresa". Therefore, where we use her Latin name, it can be spelled "Teresia", (22,000 Google results) but in English it is Teresa Benedict(a) of the Cross. (259,000 Google results).

• [5]
• [6]
• [7] Elizium23 (talk) 10:10, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

However, the redirection to the article's page is named Teresia Benedicta of the Cross. This redirection has been here since 2007. The German form Teresia Benedicta vom Kreuz also uses "Teresia", so I wonder why this should change in English to Teresa.--Medusahead (talk) 10:26, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Medusahead, because the preponderance of WP:RS in English do. That's our gold standard. It doesn't matter what redirects say; those are generously sprinkled around the Wiki to help people who are searching for a topic. Misspellings are frequently given redirects since they are likely search terms. The "Teresia" is just an uncommon spelling on the English wiki, so it makes sense to give a redirect for it. I will be reverting to "Teresa" given there are no rational objections here. Elizium23 (talk) 21:02, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't intend to be pervicacious in any way. If you want me to reset the referring Teresias of the English version, I'll do it.--Medusahead (talk) 07:23, 23 October 2020 (UTC)