Talk:Education in Belgium/Archive 1

Archive 1

Request for Rewriting

The sections Course overview, Expert's evaluation of the school system, Educative system as a block on creativity and entrepreneur-ship, and Some other flaws in the design need to be rewritten, to cite sources, or to be deleted from this article entirely.

Course overview does not (in my opinion) qualify in its present condition as a section; it is only one sentence, which isn't even complete (notice the ellipses.) Also, its tone does not fit that of an encyclopedia entry. I may change it following this post, but I don't see much point in it because no real information is provided in the section.

Expert's evaluation of the school system does not cite sources for the evaluation used to make assertions put forth in the section. It again lacks an encyclopedic tone; the schools are compared only to Germany without a specific reason (which shows some partisanship) and asks a question near the end. This section needs a rewrite with sources if it is to remain in this article.

The final two sections have the same issues regarding syntax, tone, and insufficient sources. Educative System as a block... quotes Ferre Laevers without a link to where it was found, there are spelling errors throughout, and the phrase "allot (sic) information to chew" is, again, informal in nature, as is the entire final section.

Not being from Belgium, or even from Europe, I went to this article wanting to find information on the education system, so I may not be the most well qualified to rewrite this article, except for structural errors (which I will leave intact until other users see the issues themselves.) If anyone could help to improve these sections, it would be appreciated. If no sources can be found to maintain a neutral POV, I move that the offending sections are removed enitrely. --Freakazette 19:10, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this needs to be rewritten. Especially as their is a clear bias, as is demonstrated by the following sentence "All the stuff students must learn should be used to explain the reality, not the other way around. In Belgium this is most definetly not the case.".

Agreed, last section especially is unnecessary and does not follow neutrality regulations. Also seems poorly translated (grammar and spelling errors). Anyone who knows about the Belgium school system or can spend some time on valid research should get involved ASAP for some major revision. Thanks in advance / wish I could be of more help. 72.1.206.21 16:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

As a Belgian student, I have edited this article. The topic on secondary education has been slightly extended. The disputed part of the article has been completely removed, because of the nonsensical nature of that part. Hardly anyone in Belgium disputes the quality of the education. It is quite classical, but I have never known anyone that studied Latin or Greek regretting that decision later on. Even more: for further university education, Latin and Greek come in very handy when studying languages, sciences (reading manuals in other languages), or medicine. I guess that some really traumatised 16year old, or perhaps an traumatised assistant of that quoted professor (never heard of the man), wrote it.

However it is true that the suicide rate in Belgian youth is among the highest, and that this relates to the stress put on youth to perform as the best. The system is quite competitive and indeed stresses plain knowledge rather than innovation and entrepreneurship. But as Belgium ranks among the highest in welfare statistics, it seems not so bad at all, i'd say.

I changed the parts about secondary education and higher education. The part about secondary education had a HUGE mistake in it, as a B.S.O. degree does NOT allow entrance to a university, except if an optional 7th year of study is taken. I added information about entrance to universities/colleges, and the cost of higher education, as well as rearanging the whole Bologna-part, as the order seemed illogical.134.58.253.131 23:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Improvements

I made some improvements on the article:

• The claim The education system of the Flemish region alone would have ranked first. about the PISA-study does not make sense. But it is true that Dutch-speaking students score generally better than French-speaking students. So I corrected that, and included a reference to the study.
• I removed the link to Flemish education, since that article is just a copy of this article; I already nominated it for deletion.
• Converted some text into lists for clarity
• Added more information about education in the French Community, since some sections only mentioned the structure in the Flemish community
• Added some important Dutch and French words
• Added See also and External links sections
• Added, removed and corrected some internal links

I will continue this work later today. Stijn Vermeeren 10:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Why would you say that the claim The education system of the Flemish region alone would have ranked first. does not make sense ?

Given that indeed the Belgian governement as early nothing to say anymore about the education in Belgium (far less even then the European Union), and given that the organizationa and the performance of the educational systems of the communities are so different, your choice looks like a very politil, and strictly personal POV! Thus, against Wikipedia.--Rudi Dierick 14:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the claim isn't supported by references, and therefore up until now -if it were true- would constitute original research, so it should be removed from the article, but I wouldn't say that it doesn't make sense. The Belgian score is an average of the results from the 3 communities. If you would only take the Flemish results into account, it is quite possible that you would reach higher figures. And if these figures would be higher than those of the country that was ranked first in the study, Flanders would rank first. Or am I overlooking something ? --LucVerhelst 10:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

There was no reference included indeed, BUT hat statement reflects the consensual opinion among specialists among this, and it is, in recent years, also more and more acknowledged by leading French-speaking politicians. therefor, claiming that the lack of references would be a good enough reason looks very much like searching for a lame excuse for either ignorance, either partisan censorship! --Rudi Dierick 14:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll describe my objections more in detail:

• The study does not make an general raking of countries, but only makes rankings in different domains (mathematics, litteracy, science...). There actually is a study about the results of Flanders as a region in PISA 2003. It ranks Flanders first, but only in mathematics.
• Why should the Belgian regions be ranked against states? Why wouldn't we divide the other states in regions too? When we do that, there will probably be another region scoring higher than Flanders. There is really no objective way of making a ranking this way.

Apparently you really ignorant about education and international studies into the success of educational systems. there re NO such studies that compare 'the Belgian regions' 'against states', fr the simple reaon that the region have NOTHING to do with the educational systms. Education is a matter of the communities!

When the study was published, many media actually headlined Flanders best of the world in education or something like that without making these nuances. But Wikipedia should do better than that :-) Stijn Vermeeren 11:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

True.

I agree it shouldn't be entered in the article.

Hm, and why not do beter then just stupidly leve out valuable information? Why not include all relevnt, correct and valid infomation, AND present it also in a precise, nuanced way? --Rudi Dierick 14:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Just for the discussion : Why should the Belgian regions be ranked against states? Because in Belgium, unlike in other states examined, the organisation of education is purely a community matter. Differences in structure and financing education exist, and influence the level of education. An objective study takes these differences into account, and therefore doesn't treat Belgium as a unity.

So, the OECD shouldn't base the study on the states, but on the level that decides upon structure and financing. For these countries where these things are national matters, the national states should be used, for these countries where these things are regional matters, the subnational entities should be used.

Please tell the OECD I said so. :-D

--LucVerhelst 11:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point. --Stijn Vermeeren 12:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

...but when I think about it, the situation in Belgium is not so exceptional. For example, education in Germany is regulated by the sixteen Bundesländer. Stijn Vermeeren 12:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Grin. That's why I changed my text, made it more general... --LucVerhelst 14:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way : great job, improving the article. Thanks. --LucVerhelst 10:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't make sense out of this sentence "Never the level of choice available to the pupils grows with their age." so I replaced it with "The Belgian secondary education grants the pupils more choice as they enter a higher cycle.". I also thought that the sentence should be placed in the beginning of the paragraph as I thought it would be more useful to mention this before giving the content of the cycles.--Tomvasseur (talk) 11:11, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

By the way I replaced "grows with their age" with "enter a higher cycle" because if you fail one year you obviously don't get to choose more.--Tomvasseur (talk) 11:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

civil engineer

See discussion on the Civil engineer page LHOON 20:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Dutch is not a foreign language in Belgium....

Currently this article claims: "Primary schools in the French Community must teach a foreign language, which is generally Dutch or English, depending on the school." But Belgium has three official languages: Dutch, French, and German. Clearly some other word should be used then foreign. Any suggestions? — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 01:28, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Maybe Second_language is a better term. Although i think it doesn't really matter. It means almost the same. Nicob1984 (talk) 10:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Material from Secondary education

General overview of education stages

The Belgian school has a three-tier education system, each stage being divided into various levels:

• Basic education (F enseignement fondamental D basisonderwijs)
  • Nursery school (F enseignement maternel D kleuteronderwijs): for children aged 3 to 6 – is not compulsory
  • Primary school (F : enseignement primaire D lager onderwijs): for children aged 6 to 12 – is compulsory
• Secondary education: there are three cycles (F degrés D graden)
• Post secondary education: organised by universities or schools of higher education, but also by adult education institutions
  • 3-year further education (enseignement supérieur de type court) at bachelor level
  • 5-year further education (enseignement de type long) at master level (one or two more years for doctoral training)

Branches of schooling "Networks" (F réseaux D netten)

Two main branches of schooling were defined in “Le Pacte scolaire” (agreement signed in 1959 which allowed the parents to choose their children's school): The secular branch of schooling ruled by a public legal entity (le Pouvoir Organisateur) (it used to be the State, nowadays the Communities, the provinces and municipalities). This education is subsidised and supervised by the Communities. The "Free" denominational (mainly catholic) or non-denominational branch of schooling ruled by a private legal entity (PO). The curriculum depends on the free network authorities. However, the education is also subsidised and supervised by the Communities. The non-confessional branch is essentially to be found at post secondary level. The private branch (a minority) is ruled by a private legal entity, namely the parents. The child receives education at home or at a private school. In both cases it is financed by the parents themselves.

Access

In the Belgian system most students are free to choose their school even if it is far from where they live. But a new system is being introduced to regulate the enrolment of children when they enter the first year at secondary level. This system takes various elements into account: the parent's choice (nine possibilities) and the proximity between the primary school and the secondary school.

http://www.inscription.cfwb.be/index.php?id=299

Types

The first cycle gathers all the students. From the second cycle the students are faced with choices which might define their future careers.

• General education (F enseignement secondaire general D algemeen secundair onderwijs): the students are faced with academic subjects.
• Technical education (F enseignement secondaire technique D technisch secundair onderwijs), half of the subjects being academic and half non academic.
  • General-oriented technical education (F technique de transition), which lasts 4 to 5 years.
  • Vocational-oriented education, (F technique de qualification) which lasts 4 to 5 years.
• Vocational training (F enseignement secondaire professionnel D beroepssecundair onderwijs) and artistic education (F enseignement secondaire artistique D kunstsecundair onderwijs) lasts 4 to 5 years and consists mainly of non academic subjects.

Apprenticeship : This is an alternative to the traditional system and consists mainly in workplace training. This type of education is provided by CEFAs (Centre d'Enseignement et de formation en Alternance).

• Special education for children with special needs.

Curriculum

The Networks (branches of schooling) impose the curriculum but the Communities supervise the education given to check if it is respected. There is a list of core subjects which are compulsory, but the number may vary from one year to another or from one course of study to another.

• General education: native language, maths, history, geography, religion or moral philosophy, the first foreign language (either English or Dutch for the French-speaking students/ English or French for the Dutch-speaking students).
• Technical and vocational education: Native language, maths, social studies, religion or moral philosophy, (the first foreign language), but the number of periods a week is inferior.

In each type of education there are also statutory subjects (F options). The general education core subjects/ statutory subject ratio is less important than the technical and vocational education ratio. The general level students can choose literary, scientific or linguistic subjects or sports. So, according to the main subjects chosen, the number of periods a week varies. Usually two main subjects are associated: Latin/maths, social sciences/languages, science/PE. In the technical and vocational education, the subjects chosen are more work-related: agronomy, industry, construction industry, catering, textile, services, economy, applied art, applied science, applied computer science, fine arts.

Timetables

Generally speaking, students go to school from Sept 1 to June 30, from Monday to Friday and most have the Wednesday afternoon off. The timetables vary from one school to another but the lessons usually start around 8:00 am. During the school day there are two or three breaks, one at 10:00 for about 15 minutes, one at noon for about one hour and finish around 4:00 pm and one in the afternoon in some schools. The amount of periods varies from 29 to 34 fifty-minute periods a week.
The official holidays are a one-week mid-term holiday in October/November, two weeks at Christmas, a one-week mid-term holiday in February/March, two weeks at Easter and the two-month summer holiday, plus four half days chosen by the school.

Certification of secondary education

Certifying exams take place every year, generally in December and June. They are prepared and marked by the student's teachers, although some external exams also exist. However, they are not certifying exams for the time being. This may change in the future.

• General education: the students completing this cycle get the CESS (Certificat d'Enseignement Secondaire Supérieur). This degree no longer allows the students to get a job. Anyway, most of them generally go on to study. This is the best preparation for those who want to go to university or to a school of higher education.

• Transition Technical Education: the students completing this cycle also get the CESS. A seventh year is sometimes necessary to prepare the students who want to go on to study, depending on their choice.

• Qualification technical Education: the students completing this cycle also receive the CESS. They also get a CQ (certificate de qualification), which entitles them to look for a job. But a seventh year is sometimes necessary to prepare the students who want to go on to study, depending on their choice.

• Vocational or Artistic Education: the students completing this cycle (after the 6th or 7th year) get a CQ. A seventh year is compulsory for the students who want to go on to study and therefore get their CESS.

Parent's role

According to their own education level, the parents can or cannot help their children. But as a matter of fact, the students have to learn autonomy during this period. There exist parent's associations, who also take part in councils called Conseils de participation. The parent's role varies a lot from one school to another. In some schools it only consists in coming to parent's meetings to discuss their children's situation and/or to school open days (generally called Portes Ouvertes).

Presence of Clubs at school

Every school is free to organise its own chess, football, basketball…team and take part in championships, tournaments, etc. As for sports, an association called FRSEL (Fédération royale sportive de l'enseignement libre), for example, organises such events. These activities are purely optional and usually take place on Wednesday afternoons. Teachers can also organise workshops themselves on a purely voluntary basis. What's more students can have their own activities (not organised by the school).

Uniforms

In many schools the uniform was suppressed in the seventies. Some schools have decided to re-introduce it owing to the discrimination caused by differences in clothing. In many schools, however, only a t-shirt with the school logo is required for PE lessons and specific clothes for technical and vocational subjects. For oral examinations upper-level students are often required to wear a suit and tie for boys and a skirt and blouse for girls.

Costs

The secondary education is free although school stationery, swimming pool and trip expenses are generally payable by the parents.

Private lessons

Private lessons are more and more frequent, even if it is quite low compared with other European countries. In 2010 one family out of ten has to find help outside school. These private lessons mainly aim at helping students in difficulty. The subjects students have the most difficulty with are maths, French, Dutch, English and chemistry. These lessons are given either at the teacher's home or at the student's. They cost about €25 for an hour but there is no rule. University students also give private lessons for about €17 an hour.

Access to University or schools of higher education

The CESS is required in all cases. There are some exceptions. For example there is an entrance examination for the ones who want to study Engineering Sciences (Ingénieur Civil).

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