Talk:Egyptians/Archive 5

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Archive 5

June 2018

Per the recent editwarring, I went to the source https://www.nature.com/articles/srep09996 , which clearly has the Copts as a distinct group. Should the editwarring continue, I will call for the article to be locked down.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 05:30, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Rameses DNA Dispute Resolution Filed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#DNA_history_of_Egypt

Identity

Treannmust you keep deleting my edits labeling them as plagiarism when they aren't. I don't understand why you do that. I added sources citing how Egyptians Identified themselves in the 18th and 19th century, if you have other sources from that era then add them, I won't remove them. In fact it would be great to have more references. Also, you keep labeling what I wrote as plagiarism. What plagiarism exactly? I wrote every word of that except the citations. The article now presents all views on Identity in a more balanced fashion chronologically, without stressing on one point of view. If you want to add something, do it, but don't remove my entire effort, reading, getting sources, and writing, in one click just because you don't like my opinion, or because history starts in the early 20th century. Thanks!

Please try to limit the personal opinions of Non-Egyptians on how the Egyptian Identity should be, listing a singular opinion, such as that of H. S. Deighton is misleading. H. S. Deighton is a British historian and an orientalist who is very little known in Egypt. This section should represent how Egyptians identified during different periods, not how others thought they should identify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sefarat90 (talk • contribs)

Sir, you kept adding different words to quotes! literally adding words to what the writer narrated making it appear like his own words. Also i answered you before, you can't attack historians nationalities. Non-Egyptians? you literally quoted racist Turkish Pashas who viewed us Egyptians as inferiror and the same page where you kept insisting to add from is literally saying so. Thanks Treannmust (talk) 22:43, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Sir, you keep accusing me of unfounded claims. I didn’t add any words to anything. Secondly, please don’t attack me personally, I have nothing against you. Third, no, it’s not racist to say that we want to have the opinions of Egyptians mainly. When talking about identity, it is common sense to list how a specific people view themselves. What is actually racist is to list the opinion of a Person from a country that was occupying Egypt, litterally telling people how they should identify. By the way, I am also Egyptian, and I bave issues with many views that about identity, but I don’t try to suppress them because I believe they are part of the collective conscience of Egyptians, and all opinions have to be represented in a balanced way. Lastly, I am not listing random pashas’ opinions, I am listing how official documents in their country referred to them, how the first leader of their military viewed them, and how they themselves referred to themselves. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sefarat90 (talk • contribs) 23:16, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Totally false, you narrated a QUOTE, and totally changed it's meaning! You claimed that the word Egyptians / Masryeen from Misr (Egypt) originally refers Cairo, which is a totally historically false claim. The name Misr is given to the entire country of Egypt under after the Arab rule and is mentioned in the Quran and is based on Hebrew Bible too. The writer says that Native Muslims in Cairo commonly refer to themselves as Egyptians / El Masryeen, and the capital city of Egypt as Masr. That's in the same way how in French litretaure people used to refer to Paris as France. You totally twisted the meaning and cliamed that Masr was originally a name given to Cairo, which is FALSE. You put on the English Wikipedia FALSE TRANSLATIONS using the fact that not many people can understand Arabic, you translated the term "Misr / Masr" into Cairo, where in fact Cairo is literally Al Qahera in Arabic while Misr/ Masr is literal word for EGYPT. You can't twist someone's words and also you can't put false translations Treannmust (talk) 23:30, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

I didn’t, Misr used to refer to the greater Cairo area, even before Cairo was built, it was also used to refer to Al fustat, and also to the entire land of Egypt, just like Sham is used to refer to Damascus, and to the entire levant, and just like Tunis used to the city of Tunis, and to the entire country of Tunisia. If you actually read the citations you will see that. You not wanting to read references and not wanting to know how an expression could mean different things in different times, and wanting to impose the modern day definitions on the past is not my problem.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sefarat90 (talk • contribs)

You totally ignored the warning of the respectful Wikipedia Admin on both our pages, that you can't revert edits, yet you still reverted edits two more times. You judge writers and historians based on their nationalities, this is unacceptable. And regarding the occupier and their listed terms, the page literally says that Turks view Egyptians as too inferior, the page didn't say that EGYPTIANS called themselves SONS OF ARABS!. There's a HUGE difference between the term "Arab" which is a term used to identify Arabic speaking people from Morocco to Oman, and between a nation calling themselves "Sons of Arabs", Egyptians called themselves "Sons of Egypt", you passed a Turkish opinion viewing people they harassed under a section where it should list how Egyptians identify. Treannmust (talk) 23:40, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

In your search history, yet another Wikipedia Admin Ƶ§œš¹ is warning you from personal attacks, you are attacking people based on their nationalities, this nationality can write.. this can not write. Here's the warning incase you didn't read it [1] Treannmust (talk) 23:49, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Where did it say sons of Egypt exactly? I provided a reference of an Egyptian referring to himself as an Arab. Where is your reference?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sefarat90 (talk • contribs) 00:10, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Do you know what the modern term Arab mean? this isn't even the reference i am refering to and you know that well. Sons of Egypt (Awlad Masr) is the term Egyptians in the capital refered to themselves along with term 'Ahl El Balad' (The country's natives), to distinguish themselves from Turkish elites and the quote belongs to Edward William Lane. 'Sons of Arabs' (A-V-lad l Arab (Obvious foreign Turkish pronunciation) ) is a term Egyptians never ever used discribing themselves, and the writer's quote is STATING that it belongs to Ottoman rulers NOT an Egyptian term/slogan at all, and that's the thing we are discussing here!. Treannmust (talk) 00:44, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Also you kept ignoring Wikipedia Adminstration warnings. This is against Wikipedia Rules and could get you blocked. Treannmust (talk)

The book says people of Cairo call themselves Awlad Masr (people if cairo) not of Egypt, and as opposed to Fellahin (People from the countryside), not to Turks.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sefarat90 (talk • contribs)

The book literally says the MULSIM NATIVES IN CAIRO call themselves The Egyptians (El Masryeen) and Sons of EGYPT (Misr). You are the one who keeps changing the quote. And nice that you refered to the Fellahin (Farmers), where all census from that period state that they were the majority of the nation and that Egypt had an incredibly high illiteracy rate. Imagine forcing a term they never ever used on them and putitng a Turkish narrative, Egyptians NEVER called themselves 'Avlad lArab'. And this colonist narrative totally wipes off millions of the Fellahin. Unlike your edits, i take quotes very seriously and i don't change their meanings, you just contradicted yourselve by mentioning the Fellahin whom are very very very related to their land and never ever called themselves 'Avlad lArab'. Thank you for proving my point. Treannmust (talk) 01:20, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Ok. You keep accusing me of false claims. I am going to quote what the book says verbatim. First, I am using the book "The Manners & Customs of the Modern Egyptians By Edward William Lane, London & Tornto, Published by J M Dent & Sons Limited. And In New York, By E.P. Dutton and Co". In Chapter 1, page 26 in the book he says: <quote>"In every point of view, Masr (or Cairo) must be regarded as the first Arab city of our age"</quote>, so it states clearly what Masr means in the book. Additionally, in the next page (page 27) he says verbatim: <quote> "The native Muslim inhabitants of Cairo commonly call themselves " El-Masreeyeen," "Owlad-Maasr " (or " Ahl Masr "), and "Owlad-el-Beled, which signify People of Masr, Children of. Masr, and Children of the Town : the singular forms of these appellations are "Maasree, "Ibn-Masr," and "Ibn-el-Beled." Of these three terms, the last is most common in the town itself. The country people are called "El-Fellaheen" (or the agriculturists), in the singular" Fellah." </quote>. I don't think I am the one who is trying to twist the meaning the writer is trying to convey. Please read the book before getting angry at me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sefarat90 (talk • contribs)

These aren't false claims, Misr was the name of Egypt when Cairo wasn't even built! Putting non-historical claims as "Misr was originally the name of Cairo only" is against Wikipedia Rules. Treannmust (talk) 03:36, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

As I said, the term referred to the area of modern day Greater Cairo even before cairo was created, the term referred to Al Fustat Before Cairo, and to Memphis before Al Fustat — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sefarat90 (talk • contribs) 16:58, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

”Egyptians” is an English word that Egyptians obviously didn’t use. Egyptians before the birth of Egyptian Nationalism in Mid 1800s, Egyptians identified (ethnically speaking) as either Copts or Arabs, and in the upper classes: Turks, Circassians, etc. It is true that some muslims still identified as Muslim Copts, but they were a minority then, since the term was associated with Christianity during the Mamluk Era The term Masry didn’t mean then what we mean now because people then, when identifying with places names, they identified with city names, (i.e. Al Manfalooty, Al Tahtawy, etc.), so the word Masry then meant a person from the cairo area. Not until mid 1800s did they all start identifying as one people named “Masreyeen” that encompassed all the ethnic groups that existed before to form a new Collective Ethnic group. Masreyeen didn’t mean Pure Blooded Egyptians then, but meant a Person from the modern day area of Greater Cairo. Ibn Ayas identified as a Masry when he was a Circassian, Al Jabarti was Masry when he was a Somali, that was because both were “Cairene”. The area of modern day cairo was referred to as Masr (Which is also the same name used to refer to all of Egypt) even before Cairo was built, it referred to Al Fustat, and to memphis too.