Talk:Eight-ball pool (British variation)

UK pool

Helpful summary of the past UK pool organisations... forerunners of current blackball organisations in the UK http://www.blackball.uk/2016/09/ukpf-8ball-pool-rules-1992.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.17.107.54 (talk) 10:42, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

There's a website at http://www.blackball.uk which provides information about UK Blackball. The site is currently being worked on and there's much more information to be added. Feel free to use anything if you believe it would be useful. I think the Wikipedia UK blackball article could possibly benefit from a major re-write. It's been largely unchanged for quite a few years. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scottish8ball (talk • contribs) 14:07, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Some basic information here... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Blackballuk — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackballuk (talk • contribs) 15:06, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

More relevant information? The current website address of the European Blackball Association... http://eba-pool.org There's some information about blackball pool here which may prove useful... http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Blackball-Pool-History-and-Rules-/10000000208112435/g.html?roken=cUgayN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.91.75 (talk) 20:53, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Blackball is one set of rules. 'World Rules' is another. Blackball is not a generic name for pool in the UK. There should indeed be separate pages for WEPF 'world rules' and World Pool Association 'blackball rules'. Or a single topic UK Pool and then describe various rule sets separately. The current content is flawed I'm afraid.

As regards the image description, to say that this represents a 'kick shot' in action does not really work. The rules described are not accurate as far as blackball is concerned. The set or colour is not nominated by the player. There are several other discrepancies I'm afraid.

I wonder if there should be a wider UK/English pool with a lot of this info in it. There is mention of the EPA and the World Eight Ball Pool Federation Rules but it feels a bit like this is saying everyone plays Blackball rules and calls the game Blackball and they don't.

There should be a World Eight Ball Pool Federation Rules page but I think one UK pool page with the rules (Blackball, World Eight Ball Pool Federation Rules, BAPTO)off it?

I might start a World Eight Ball Pool Federation Rules page to get the ball rolling! --Watford147 (talk) 16:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I've tried to address the historical relationship a little better. You are right that the article is glaringly flawed, especially with BAPTO being missing. I would strongly advise against forking the article any time soon, as WP:AFD will just merge them again. It would be better to drastically improve this article, and then if necessary rename it (however I think it would be vastly preferable to keep this article at Blackball (pool) than to move it to Eight-ball pool, as it will be too easily confused with Eight-ball. UK pool or something like that is too general - other games than these are played on pool tables in Britain! Improve the article first, we'll worry about what to call it later. PS: I also favor the blackball name for the article, because blackball is inevitably going to be the direction of this "class" of games' evolution, as the WPA is huge and global and pushing for Olympic sanctioning. The older variants are going to be increasingly marginalized over the next decade, and are almost certainly going to see their rulesets shift toward WPA's (while WPA will almost certainly make concessions back in their direction, until all three bodies agree on a common set of rules). The same thing has been happening in US/intl. eight-ball, with WPA making rules changes to get buy-in from BCA (which eventually became satisfied and is now an official WPA affiliate and shares the same rulesets), meanwhile the major formerly-US and now increasingly international amateur league, VNEA, is making more changes every year that bring it in line with the WPA/BCA rules. It's just a natural process of compromise and nothing to worry about :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Granted this discussion was 15 years ago, but little had changed in the article since. I have done a full rewrite of the rules section based on the opinions expressed above, and moved it to Eight-ball Pool (British variation). Yeadonian (talk) 11:27, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Pub rules

Also I believe a decent explanation of the differences between common Pub Rules and World Rules would be definitely useful, and they certainly are both in common use in the UK. Also, I read potting the black on a break means you win - I only recall playing under rulesets to the opposite effect (probably Pub Rules), it counts the same as if you had potted the black at any other time before your colours are down - you instantly lose the game. Piro RoadKill (talk) 10:28, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

We've had a terrible time with WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV (and sometimes WP:NFT) problems at Eight-ball in trying to handle the same pub/bar vs. competition rules comparison. The problem is that there are virtually no reliable sources anywhere for pub/bar rules, and they radically vary by region, even venue. It's something more suited to some external book, a Bob's Guide to Playing Pool on the Road or whatever, that gathers actual research data on what the rules are in various areas. It's not an encyclopedia's job.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:45, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Picture

The ball set up is described as that for World Rules. It is also the set up for blackball rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.3.112.154 (talk) 18:51, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Do you reckon we could get a few better pictures in? The current one is a smidge blurry. Might also be nice to have a picture or diagram of the setup of the balls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.101.36.95 (talk) 20:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Now someone has changed (in April 2019) the image of the rack set ... unfortunately that is not the correct set up for either World Rules or Blackball. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.66.118 (talk) 20:25, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Good... it's now correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.120.254 (talk) 20:19, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

WEPF vs. WPA rules error?

The WPA section used to say:

Blackball rules are very similar to the WEPF World Rules. One notable difference is that after a fault, the incoming player has a free shot (i.e., may take the cue ball in position or in-hand in baulk; the "wrong ball first" rule is suspended) and also has next visit (continues playing even if no ball or opponent's ball is potted on the free shot).

After a recent change it now says:

Blackball rules are very similar to the WEPF World Rules. One notable difference is that after a fault, the incoming player has a free shot (i.e., may take the cue ball in position or in-hand in baulk; the "wrong ball first" rule is suspended) and also the player does not have a next visit (does not continue playing even if no ball or opponent's ball is potted on the free shot).

There's no source cited for this make-it-say-the-opposite change. Even if it's correct about the WPA rules, it would mean taht the WEPF and WPA rules are even more similar that the article said, so the section is still wrong in describing "one notable difference" that it now is suggesting is the same for both rulesets!

Given that all of this material was written something like 4 or 5 years ago, both rulesets needs to be re-checked and summarized here correctly as to what they say as of November 2024.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:39, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

If I understand the rule correctly I would say the WPA rule relating to being limited to one free shot when your on black is unfair. It effectively means your opponent can deliberately not play their own color in order to give you an unplayable shot on black so no matter how bad they play you never get 2 shots on black. To paraphrase Gomez. "Dirty pool old man".(Mike G 21/11/14)

Having done some research, it looks as though the WPA rules changed at the beginning of 2008, from this (published July 2006) to this (published December 2007). By my interpretation, the specific rule under discussion did indeed change.

The old rules explicitly state (section 6a) that the opponent gets "a free shot plus one visit".

The new rules do not mention a second shot or visit at all. Section 5.13 states "If the shooter commits a foul, play passes to his opponent. The incoming player has one free shot (see Free shot) as the first shot of his inning."

Assuming that "inning" (defined by Section 8.12) can be taken as synonymous with "visit", and noting that Section 5.13 does not modify Section 5.7, which indicates that if you don't legally pocket a ball then your turn/visit/inning ends, then I would conclude that the change made to the article is correct, and is in line with the change made to the rules themselves. I'd also agree that it does represent a major difference from WEPF "World Rules" in that WEPF expressly gives two visits, but no free shot (except partially so in the case of a snooker), whereas the new WPA rules do give a free shot but, seemingly, no second visit. Even before the change, it was still a fairly significant difference (colloquially, "two shots carry" vs. "two shots don't carry").

Given the great popularity of rule sets that (in varying senses) give "two shots", I personally think the WPA rules are a bit remiss in not making it more explicit that an incoming player doesn't get a second shot following a miss on the free shot. But since they don't say anywhere that you do, I can only interpret it as meaning that you don't.

As for BAPTO, the rules page of their website states that they now "adhere to the new WPBA [sic] Blackball rules", but then provides a link to the old ones!! However, the BAPTO rules dating from 2000 are still reproduced on their website. I do agree that these merit at least a mention in the article.

I'll see if I can firm up the above conclusions, and, if I get a chance, will attempt to rewrite the section at some point. In the meantime, I'd be grateful for anyone either agreeing or disagreeing with me! Quackdave (talk) 14:54, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the work on that. That's looks like a good review of the source material. I've self-reverted my {{dubious}} tag on this, and trust that you can write up clearer wording distinguishing the rules variances. The rules material on both variants could probably use a lot of copyediting and checking. An anon recently replaced one rule with a different but not incompatible rule (without a source); I re-edited it to keep both, pending verification.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  02:36, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the published rule on the WPA website is vague, and suggests that the player only gets 1 visit. However, I checked a recent tournament (2022 World Blackball Championship) here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrLZDyVZu3g and at 19:35 you can see that a player fouls, and the next player does not pot on his first shot but still gets a second visit. Therefore the rule must be that you get 1 free shot AND 1 subsequent visit. Yeadonian (talk) 23:24, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

World Blackball Championship

The section relating to the World Blackball Championship could perhaps be updated. The WBC 2014 is to be held in Perth, Scotland. I have added relevant details here... http://scottishpool.org/spa_wbc2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.37.73 (talk) 11:43, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

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Blackball Rules Summarised

This is a summary of blackball pool rules which you may find useful. Your coverage of the rules could benefit from updating. Currently there's more about WEPF rules which seems strange. Also view details here on google drive as a PDF... https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7kOwTK6d_RnVFU0Mlp0Z1RtOGc/view

You'll find much more about blackball and the history and development of the cue sport on www.blackball.uk

Contact... Bill Hunter ukpool@gmail.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.17.100.224 (talk) 13:52, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

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Updates needed

This article does need a bit of an overhaul. For one thing, the WEPF has adopted a new rule set called "Supreme rules" (named for a sponsor) or "International rules", so those need to be included in some fashion. (Of course, it just seems to be another example of this xkcd comic in action. But also, the article really needs a broader look at the game instead of acting as though the WPA rules are definitive, as in terms of overall participation the older rule sets probably are still more used. Even the name of the article creates an impression of bias, though I understand that it's the only good choice considering the term "eight-ball" is already quite appropriately taken by the older American-style game. Perhaps some reconsideration is needed. oknazevad (talk) 09:02, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

I've had a go at overhauling the article to give some historical context to the competing rulesets. Yeadonian (talk) 21:36, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

PPPO?

What ruleset were the PPPO events? That's not covered anywhere in the article. Also, why was their event called EUKPF Professional World Championship? What does that stand for? "Europe and United Kingdom Pool Federation"? How do EUKPF and PPPO relate? Also, the archive-url links to their event pages go to useless broken pages that just have menus but not content (I would guess due to relying on Flash), so the material on PPPO stuff is basically unsourceable, at least with these sources.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:56, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Rules clarity

Three sections, "EPA rules (1978–1998)", "WPA blackball rules (2004–present)", and "EPA/WEPF international rules (2022–present)", say "The first legally potted ball decides the colours." This is unclear. I think it means "The first legally potted ball aside from the break-off decides the colours.", but I'm not certain.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:12, 13 December 2023 (UTC)