Talk:Eilish Cleary

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 11:35, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Eilish Cleary's role as Chief Medical Officer of Health in New Brunswick was controversially terminated while studying glyphosate, a herbicide that is widely used in the province's industries?

• Source: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-former-nb-chief-medical-officer-eilish-cleary-was-a-fearless-defender/ & https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/eilish-cleary-health-settlement-1.4191543

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Myinsaing
• Comment: I'm not totally confident in the hook, so feel free to offer feedback or suggestions on whether it can be used or not. Thanks!

Created by B3251 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 17 past nominations.

B3251_(talk) 21:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC).

• The article is long enough, new enough, and is neutral with no copyright violations. A QPQ has been completed. I think that the hook is fine. SL93 (talk) 22:14, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Eilish Cleary/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: B3251 (talk · contribs) 02:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Actuall7 (talk · contribs) 06:41, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

This is my first time reviewing an article so I apologize in advance if there are any mistakes. I would also appreciate advice for reviewing better. Actuall7 (talk) 06:41, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello there, thanks for the review. I'll make changes as I go by and ping you when complete. B3251_(talk) 15:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Hey @B3251, thanks for addressing most of the issues so far. I was wondering if it would be better to get a second opinion regarding the coatracking tag? Actuall7 (talk) 03:05, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

@Actuall7 Yes, please. I responded to the editor who added it to the article tag, but, no response as of yet. Preferably a Canadian editor, I’ll also reach out to another editor based in New Brunswick for their opinion. B3251_(talk) 12:04, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

(Specifically responded in the article talk page) B3251_(talk) 12:06, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I've updated the status. Actuall7 (talk) 12:26, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

@B3251 it seems the issue has been resolved, I'll remove the coatracking tag and put the status back on hold. Actuall7 (talk) 00:44, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Will get back to this soon and ping when done. B3251_(talk) 16:36, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

@Actuall7: Done. B3251_(talk) 12:15, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Just doing some final checks. Actuall7 (talk) 12:21, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

@B3251, I've given my last few comments. Actuall7 (talk) 12:40, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

@Actuall7: Thanks for the comments. I noticed that I had forgotten one as well, everything should be done now. B3251_(talk) 12:45, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for addressing everything, passing the article. Actuall7 (talk) 12:56, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Putting page on hold for now until issues are adressed. Actuall7 (talk) 00:59, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

initial checks

• Non-free usage rationale for the image seems okay.
• Earwig gives a 42.2% chance of copyvio but most of it is from quotes from this article [1] and others so it isn't that concerning.

Lead

• Minor problems in the lead.
• Y Not sure if physician should be wikilinked.
• Y "termination in 2015 under a controversial decision by the provincial government." -> maybe rephrase to say "in 2015, following a controversial decision"?
• Y "She later moved to Canada where she served as a public health official in Manitoba before moving to New Brunswick to work there. After her termination, Cleary worked as a public health official" -> Since she continued working as a public health official, reword to say: "After her termination, Cleary continued working as a public health official"
• Y "physician, health officer and public health advocate" -> use Oxford comma for consistency as you use it at later parts of the article -> "physician, health officer, and public health advocate"

Early life and career

• Y This section from public health career, "Cleary and her family moved to Canada in 1998. She initially lived and worked in Manitoba, where she served as the public health officer for the North Eastman Regional Health Authority and afterwards for the province.", can be moved to early life and career as this was still early into her career and life.
• Is this citation [2], used in the sentence, "and afterwards for the province.", the best source to show that she became the province health officer? The source only refers to her as the province health officer and the article isn't even mainly about Cleary.

I have attempted to look for better sources, but I wasn't able to find one aside from that ProQuest document which states that she served for the province. I can remove it if you feel that it should but that is the best I was able to find. B3251_(talk) 12:15, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

This source [3] by The Council of Canadians states that Cleary worked as the Regional Medical Officer in Manitoba. Is it better? Actuall7 (talk) 12:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Looks like "Regional" in this sense just refers to a Regional health authority in Manitoba, which she served as the public health officer of. I'll just remove it, since it's not much to lose. B3251_(talk) 12:45, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Public health in New Brunswick

• Y "with the chief at the time being Wayne MacDonald." -> would it be easier to say "under then-chief Wayne MacDonald."? This is done later in the article: "then-health minister Ted Flemming"
• Y "she was the acting chief, and by January 2009 she was" remove and add commas -> "she was the acting chief and, by January 2009, was"
• Y "At this time, New Brunswick placed second in the country in the percentage of population vaccinated against H1N1 with a vaccination rate of 40%." -> perhaps reword this to reference Cleary? At the moment, it feels like a random line that isn't related to Cleary.
  • Is this source [4] better to show her role during the H1N1 pandemic?

Reworded and used a new source (https://www.newspapers.com/article/daily-gleaner/154690606/). B3251_(talk) 12:45, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

• Y "Between 2014 and 2015" -> "Between 2014 to 2015" Unless the two trips were made seperately in 2014 and 2015

2015 termination

• Y "then under control of the Liberal Party" simplify -> "then-controlled by the Liberal Party"
• Y "who has voiced opposition" -> "who had voiced opposition" Also, is this referring to NB Power, J. D. Irving, or both of them opposing the ban?

J. D. Irving. Changed text to "the latter of whom" to specifically indicate this.

• Y J. D. Irving should be abbreviated to JDI and used throughout the article and is even referred to as JDI in this sentence: "falsely implied that J. D. Irving, Limited (JDI) is or was involved in some sort of conspiracy against Dr. Cleary because JDI uses glyphosate"
• Y "the article's comments section insinuated" -> Comment section does not need to be wikilinked.
• Y "J. D. Irving spokeswoman Mary Keith" -> "JDI's spokeswoman Mary Keith"
• Y "Coon, a friend of Cleary's who "often consulted with her about public health issues" " not sure if it is necessary to mention this quote, instead just mention the fact that they were friends.
• Y "According to health minister Victor Boudreau" should be then-health minister as Victor is no longer the health minister according to his article.
• Y "herself, The Daily Gleaner and The Globe and Mail." should use the Oxford comma -> "herself, The Daily Gleaner, and The Globe and Mail."
• Y "by the provincial government, and that her" and "was "hush money", and part" unnecessary commas

Will add more later. Actuall7 (talk) 12:19, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Continuing review. Actuall7 (talk) 00:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Post-termination career

• Y "listed as "physician" by Service New Brunswick" -> not sure if physician should be wikilinked.
• Y "serve as a "federal public health adviser on aboriginal issues"." Is this quote necessary? Why not just say "hired Cleary as a federal public health adviser."?
• Y "other provinces, and as a physician." unnecessary comma.
• Y "large flood along the Saint John River" -> "large flood that occured along the Saint John River"
• " "the need for strong environmental impact assessments and watershed protection is important because looking at contamination of river water after the fact is a heartbreaking situation for people, with a lot of damage done"." and ""hadn't sufficiently warned of the dangers"." -> These quotes are unreferenced.

Both are referenced in Chilibeck-1:

Quote 1: "The need for strong environmental impact assessments and watershed protection is important because looking at contamination of river water after the fact is a heartbreaking situation for people, with a lot of damage done," she told Brunswick News, calling for better planning.

Quote 2: She was also critical of the provincial government for what she called the promotion of recreational marijuana when pot was legalized in 2018, writing a commentary piece for Brunswick News outlining her concerns that it hadn’t sufficiently warned of the dangers.

Either way, I've removed quote 2 in a reword because I'm now directly referencing her commentary piece.

Thanks for confirming. Actuall7 (talk) 00:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Awards and honors

• No problems in the awards and honors section, except that the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal is unreferenced. Maybe reference it with [33]?
  • [33] is used to reference the entire section of text past [32], including her Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal. The specific text is She was awarded the Queens Diamond Jubilee Medal by the lieutenant-governor of New Brunswick in 2013 for her services to the people of Canada. I'm not sure why I used the same citation twice in a row though, I've moved that back. If it was the specific medal name in the quote that caught you off guard, the source just used an alternative, less specific name of the same medal. The Queen's Diamond Jubilee Medal only refers to two medals depending on which queen was reigning when they were presented. B3251_(talk) 15:42, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
    • I see, I was confused with the two medals. Thanks for confirming. Actuall7 (talk) 00:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Personal life and death

• Y "named Paul Meyer, with whom" unnecessary comma.
• Y "and later divorced around her termination" why not just say in 2015?

I used "around her termination" as per the source's wording but I'll change it to 2015.

• Y "with whom she lived in Penniac" -> "with whom she lived with in Penniac"

References

• Most references are from reliable Canadian news sources.
• I am unable to access [17] but it seems to be from J. D. Irving themselves, so I am unsure of its reliability, can you let me know if it's reliable?
  • It's just a direct reference to the statement in question so that the relevant quotes are accounted for. Try this archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20240708183255/https://www.jdirving.com/en/newsroom/j.d.-irving-limited-responds-to-unprofessional-cbc-new-brunswick-story/ B3251_(talk) 15:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
    • I've read the source, thanks for the confirmation. Actuall7 (talk) 00:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
• Is this reference [5] reliable? It is an independent news source that repeats information from other sources and is used in this sentence, "In their statement, Irving also called for CBC to "immediately remove the story from their website, publish a full retraction, and apologize for their appalling behavior". Poitras responded back on Twitter with a tweet stating, "We stand by our story." Another source [6] is already used in the sentence and seems more reliable. I could be wrong and both sources can be kept if you think that they're fine.

Canadaland should be fine, but I'll remove it as the information is already provided in the Huddle source. B3251_(talk) 12:15, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Coatracking.

Someone recently removed the coatrack tag with an edit summary of "A large portion of Cleary's notability stems from the controversy surrounding her termination. AFAIK this is evidenced by her termination/the controversy being mentioned in post-termination articles about her and her obituaries," which would seem to precisely justify the coatrack tag.

I've restored it. Qwirkle (talk) 16:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

The article mentions Irving and glyphosate at the beginning-mid portions of the "termination" section. Glyphosate is relevant to mention while recounting her termination due to it being what she had been studying at the time of her dismissal. The sources found it relevant enough to discuss it in their articles (see Jacques Poitras' CBC article) due to the significance of spraying glyphosate in New Brunswick's forestry/economy scene and the fact that she had been studying it at the time. B3251_(talk) 19:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

As a New Brunswicker, I can't understand how anyone would consider details about her very public and very controversial termination to be a deviation from the subject matter of the article. If you were to poll those who know her name, most would only recall this one story. Applying WP:COATRACK to detailing it is absurd. G. Timothy Walton (talk) 23:20, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

If that is the case, then you have proven the case for a coatrack tag completely. Perhaps it might make a case of a "Removal of..." article, but that's another story. Qwirkle (talk) 00:18, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

That is an utterly illogical response. There is no such article, there is not enough non-Cleary material to justify such an article, and any attempt to create a separate article would be met in short order with a proposal to merge with the article about her. G. Timothy Walton (talk) 00:44, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Not at all. This article is about Cleary's firing, with a little light dusting of bio. How does it fit in with the other articles about people in her position? (Uniquely, I'd expect.) Other provincial Medical Officers?

Rather close to unique, too, no? Qwirkle (talk) 02:02, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Eilish was a major health official in a provincial government. An article about her still could have been created if she hadn't been terminated, albeit quite a bit shorter (in similar fashion to her successor, Jennifer Russell). It just happens to be that her termination in New Brunswick and the controversy surrounding it was incredibly significant in her career. Your argument would have more leverage if it were the only defining moment in her career, but that is not the case as there is still quite a good chunk of biographical content unrelated to her termination. B3251_(talk) 02:14, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

If someone wished to write an article about her of about this size, it would be entirely possible to do so with two sentences about her dismissal, and a great deal more about other aspects of her career. (It might also be possible in time, with actual secondary sources, to expand authoritatively on this section, too, but right now we have no such sources.) Qwirkle (talk) 16:09, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Two sentences about her dismissal are obviously not enough given the significance it had to her career. Her termination and the circumstances surrounding it was a massive controversy within the province at the time and definitely can't be summarized into two sentences. B3251_(talk) 20:50, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, you haven't made the case with me, but nonetheless I am removing this from my watchlist. Do as you will. Qwirkle (talk) 03:10, 2 September 2024 (UTC)