Talk:Einstein on the Beach

Minimalist

Why don't you edit it to include a more accurate descriptive term for his style then?

Glass bristles at the term "minimalist." Should his disdain for this term prevent Wikipedia from applying it in this article's introduction? I suggest yes. Nick Douglas 01:47, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A request: could anyone please send me the lyrics of the Paris section in Einstein on the Beach. Thank you. Eben Venter Feb 12, 2007. A full lyrics list by Philip Glass can be found in the book 'Music by Philip Glass'. I wonder if it is impolite to talk to the dead, and expect a response? Nathanieljay216 (talk) 02:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Trivia

A work by P.D.Q. Bach is "Einstein on the Fritz". Just thought I'd mention it. Bunthorne 00:45, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Deleted recent irrelevant edition about a high school fieldtrip that happened to be called "Einstein on the Beach". Tone was not appropriate, and relation to the topic tenuous at best.... Funks 15:19, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

CBS & Nonesuch recording

Did a little tinkering today. Thoght the label on the recording in the info box should be changed to CBS Masterworks since that corresponds to the dates and cover pictured. I guess another infobox could be added with info on the more recent Nonesuch recording... Funks 19:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Themes?

"...developing on the themes of general relativity, nuclear weapons, science and AM radio." - I can't check at the moment but I don't remember any reference in the libretto to the first three subjects... - --Andybak 23:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[[User:Andybak|Andybak]

Classical?

What exactly is "classical" about this piece of music? Mozart is classical - this is warmed-over Emerson, Lake and Palmer with some Laurie Anderson thrown in. Neither of them get called "classical." Adam 13:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Anything besides Mozart classical? According to Wikipedia "Classical music in its widest sense is held to refer to music deriving from learned traditions, taught through institutions either specifically devoted to music (e.g. modern Western) or through institutions or traditions (typically religious) dedicated to transmission of specific schools of music" while "Classical music is a broad, somewhat imprecise term, referring to music produced in, or rooted in the traditions of, European art, ecclesiastical and concert music, encompassing a broad period from roughly 1000 to the present day. The central norms of this tradition, according to one school of thought, developed between 1550 and 1820, focusing on what is known as the common practice period...Since that time [1836] the term has come in common parlance to mean the opposite of popular music." Hyacinth 18:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see how any of that definition can be applied to Einstein on the Beach. I would class it has "highbrow pop." Adam 23:54, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I would classify you as having issues.

Other songs

I have reinserted references to other songs of the same title by Counting Crows and Man Man - in the case of the former it is a quite well-known track (appearing on their Best Of compilation and appearing in the top ten Google hits for the title), making it IMO notable enough to be worthy of inclusion. --Black Butterfly 11:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Have re-inserted (again) the Counting Crows ref. In spite of the edit summary by User:Jonathan Williams, the Counting Crows track is notable and should be referenced in this article. --Black Butterfly 10:34, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there any connection to the opera other than title? If there isn't, it seem relevant for a relatively obscure rock and roll band to be confounded with the opera. --Jonathan Williams 12:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Counting Crows is certainly notable. Joel Whitburn's Top Pop Singles 1955-2002 lists nine entries for them on the Hot 100 in the 90s, four of which were top forty hits, and two of those were top ten hits. Even thought they haven't had a charting single since 1999, they are still very popular and well-known with college-aged kids and older. --Darkdan 18:12, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Counting Crows are by no means obscure. Googling "'Counting Crows' band" gives 1.3 million hits. further, as explained above, one of the top ten Google hits for the title of this article is the lyrics for the Counting Crows song.

There isn't any connection other than the title AFAIK, which is why the reference is a single sentence, (now) at the start of the article, explaining that this article is about the opera, not the song. --Black Butterfly 21:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

It certainly shouldn't be at the top of the article. If anything, maybe a "Trivia" or "References in Popular Culture" section at the end of the article. Why would something without any substantial relationship to the topic appear as the first sentence on the page??? Funks 19:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

If someone was looking up information on the Counting Crows song, they would be able to see the message at the top and move on - and would be unlikely to browse the entire article to see the information as currently placed.

There is a general convention on wikipedia to put information pertaining to the article itself (disambiguation pages, etc.) at the top. For example, the article on Stargate is about the most recognised use of the word - the franchise of that name. however, the introductory text states that this article is about this topic and gives a link to other topics of the same name. this is what we are doing here.

Calling it a reference in popular culture is erroneous, as AFAIK Counting Crows were not referencing the opera (I am not familiar enough with Man Man to judge). I am therefore reverting your edit. --Black Butterfly 23:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

This is becoming somewhat ridiculous... even using the example you cite (This article is about the franchise. For other uses, see Stargate (disambiguation)), there should be a link to a seperate "Einstein on the Beach disambiguation page" that might theoretically include links to articles on Man Man and/or Counting Crows (and Albert Einstein and On The Beach for that matter...) The Wikipedia article on Stargate does not -- and should not -- list all the other possible interpretations of the term at the top of the article, which for some reason you are insisting upon doing here... Funks 17:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

A disambiguation page would be unnecessary as the other songs do not have articles of their own. While I could see the removal of the Man Man reference (as it is a different title), the Counting Crows song is a relatively well-known song by the same name as the title of this article. Two sentences at the top of this one does not in any way disrupt matters.

If this cannot be resolved I suggest we request arbitration. --Black Butterfly 13:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, cut it out. If every non-wiki-worthy song title had this same treatment, almost every article would have fanboy crap like this there! STOP. --Jonathan Williams 17:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

And again...

Instead of constantly removing content without explanation or comment could I ask those responsible to take part in a discussion here?

My logic for including an intro text to the effect of This article is about the opera by Phillip Glass. Einstein on the Beach is also a song by Counting Crows (I'm less concerned about the Man Man reference and wouldn't object to its removal) is that said song provides two of the top 10 hits on Alexa; similarly, Google gives nearly 20,000 hits for "Counting Crows" + "Einstein on the beach." further, the song was featured on CC's best of album. it seems reasonably likely that someone coming to this article would be looking for information on the song; as such I don't see what the problem is in noting at the top that this is not the relevant article. --Black Butterfly 22:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I notice that the song also has an article at Einstein on the Beach (For an Eggman), so some form of disambiguation is probably in order for the people searching for that article. Thomjakobsen 18:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The tag at the top of the article is appropriate if there's only one or two other songs with articles. I think we only need to worry about a separate disambiguation page if there's more than that. The Counting Crows song definitely deserves a tag at the top. I don't see the harm in that and don't understand why it's been removed before. Torc2 21:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anyone was aware that the song had its own article before, so I guess it was removed because it seemed like unnecessary trivia. I went looking in the band article to see whether it was too obscure, but it turns out to be one of their most notable songs (based on chart performance and radioplay), with its own article, and so some form of disambiguation is actually required. Hopefully the reverting can stop now. Thomjakobsen 21:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Structure

Is it "Knee Play 1" or "Knee 1"? I have both recordings, and they changed the titles, but should we note that in the Structure section? Torc2 (talk) 08:25, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The book Music by Philip Glass calls them 'knee plays' (1-5), as would be concurrent with philip's words in the 1986 documentary by BAM. Nathanieljay216 (talk) 02:20, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Performance history

There was a revival at Brooklyn Academy of Music in early 1990s, and possibly others not mentioned here. I'd be interested in a more complete history. ~~JS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.248.167.189 (talk) 00:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I just added brief information about the 1984 production at the Brooklyn Academy of Music, and the documentary about it. That documentary had a huge impression on me when it came out when I was 17. I just treated myself to a copy from directcinema.com (the only place it's available) and watched it for the first time in 24 years. Whoa. --tgeller (talk) 07:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Violinist

Who played the violin in the 1976 premiere? Who played the violin in the first NYC performance? Badagnani (talk) 18:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

It appears that both Paul Zukofsky and Tison Street have appeared in this role. Badagnani (talk) 10:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I have suggested that I Feel the Earth Move (opera section) be merged into this page. I don't see why this information should be split off into a seperate article.Singingdaisies (talk) 11:42, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

• Since no objection has been made in the last month, I went ahead and merged the articles.Singingdaisies (talk) 19:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

2012 Barbican performance

Reportedly one of the first Barbican performances had to be either restarted or was interrupted by a major technical failure. Should this be mentioned? Not as a point of criticism, but as an illustration of the highly technical nature of this work. 70.72.215.252 (talk) 21:41, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Ambiguous phrase

"Wilson initially suggested Charlie Chaplin or Adolf Hitler, whom Glass outright rejected[.]"

This phrase is unclear: did Glass reject both Chaplin and Hitler, or only Hitler? The latter seems very logical to me - I wouldn't want to compose an opera about Hitler either. On the other hand, Glass obviously didn't write an opera on both. So, anyone? Steinbach (talk) 20:50, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

In an interview section of "EotB - the Changing Image of Opera", Glass only talks about Chaplin and why he rejected the idea. (IIRC, because Chaplin was a performer himself, and he didn't like the idea of actors portraying an actor or something along that line) -- megA (talk) 14:09, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Hitler

I think there was a good reason for Philip Glass to reject Hitler as a choice. Philip Glass's parents were Jewish.

Anonymous71.164.209.8 (talk) 20:18, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Mr. Bojangles

imported from User talk:W like wiki#Einstein & Bojangles and refered to W like wiki's edit

---

The unusual way I constructed a wikilink at Einstein on the Beach for its movement "Mr. Bojangles" was quite deliberate. I used "Mr. [[Mr. Bojangles (song)|Bojangles]]" to produce "Mr. Bojangles" to avoid creating the impresssion that the link would take the reader to an article about that part of Glass's opera, but to create a convenient link for the alluded song. I wasn't surprised that such subtlety wouldn't survive for long; mybe I should have left an in-code comment. Cheers, -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:59, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi Michael Bednarek, I appreciate your intention very much but you're right I had not understood your subtle solution. What do you think about this crude but clear one:

• "Mr. Bojangles" (refers to the man and song Mr. Bojangles)

But are we sure that Glass refers this song (and not to Mr. Bojangles Robinson)? Maybe yes?! (the female voice in Glass' piece said all the time Hey Mr. Bojangles, If you see any of those baggy pants...^ref and in the first verse of the Song Mr. Bojangles Walker talks about I knew a man Bojangles and he danced for you in (..) baggy pants.^ref) Thanks, --W like wiki (talk) 17:57, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

P.S.: What about the link under Act 4

• Cadenza ?

I think I read somewhere in the reviews that Bojangles referred to the song, but I could be mistaken, and given those quotes from the texts, I probably am. I suppose the "crude" but clear solution might be better if indeed a link is required. — I knew you would bring up the link in "Cadenza"; only a similarly explicit explanation for those readers who want to know what that is will work without ambiguity. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:07, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Dessau perfomance?

According to the Chesternovello website, EotB was performed at the Bauhaus in Dessau, Germany in 2012. However, I couldn't find anything about that performance. Anyone knows more? -- megA (talk) 14:05, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

"and directed by theatrical producer Robert Wilson"

Hmmm, don't want to look pedantic, but the opera does not depend on Wilson be the director. On http://www.philipglass.com/music/compositions/einstein_on_the_beach.php the following is said: "The opera is non-narrative in form, and the producer has two options: to reproduce the original Robert Wilson production (which exists on videotape), or to create a new series of stage and dance pictures based on themes relating to the life of Albert Einstein." So I will change that. Regards, Denis Barthel (talk) 18:19, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

But your removal of the first mention of Wilson leaves the rest of the introduction and indeed the whole article without a contextual explanation of this name. I'm going to restore the previous wording until a more coherent approach can be found. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:47, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

In agreement with Denis above in regards to the oddity of primatizing Wilson's direction, I have reworded that phrasing: bringing forward the collaboration with Wilson on libretto and then mentioning his design and direction as a secondary matter and qualifying it as only pertaining to early production(s). This also is more in accord with the credits provided in the 'Operas in English' footnote. I think that addresses everyone's (appropriate) concerns. 130.132.173.76 (talk) 16:30, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Act 3, Scene 1: Trial/Prison or Trial 2/Prison

There is one scene called Trial before, but this scene is named Trial/Prison on 4CD box of the first recording. In the opera the stage is split, so on the left side is trial and on the right side is prison. This is where the name Trial/Prison is from, I think. Where the name Trial 2/Prison is from? My logic would prefer Trial/Prison, because it is not just second Trial. 194.211.118.11 (talk) 15:18, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Here is picture of the scene. 194.211.118.11 (talk) 15:34, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

The way I read the section "Structure" with its list of scenes, there is scene 2 in act 1 named "Trial 1", and that's why act 3, scene 1 is called "Trial 2/Prison". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:20, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Scene 2 act 1 is "Trial" and act 3 scene 1 is "Trial/Prison" on cover of CD recording of the opera. I do not understand why there should be numbers. 194.211.118.11 (talk) 12:38, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

sorry for the bump. The source cited, 'Music by Philip Glass', numbers them as such. I wrote a long, sort of snide response after this, but thought better of myself. Nathanieljay216 (talk) 02:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

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Section sources

The book Music by Philip Glass is cited for the bulk of the 'Sections' Section. While not inaccurate to the play, the does not list the most indented portions. I would be eager to find the source for these. Nathanieljay216 (talk) 02:31, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Additionally, while not related, I am reaching out to preserve the Documentary by BAM, cited, to archive.org, and will update links, barring radio silence from the owners. Nathanieljay216 (talk) 02:33, 6 January 2023 (UTC)