Talk:El Greco

Architecture and sculpture

"he refuted Vitruvius' attachment to archaeological remains ..."

States the current article. No he did not, he may have criticised it. AnnaComnemna (talk) 02:35, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Nickname

I can't find a single trustworthy source that explains how the nickname "El Greco" is Italian... I raised this complaint in the Spanish version of the article and no one payed much attention... The word Greco is Spanish, and seeing how it is preceded by the definite article "el", and seeing how El Greco's success was centered in Spain, it is most likely that the origins of the alias is Spanish...

"But the Spanish word for Greek is 'griego', not 'greco'..." The two words are synonyms (like the Netherlands and Holland). What happens is that most people who haven't read Siglo de Oro literature, even if their native language is Spanish, tend to have very wrong notions about the history of the language. Namely, they don't really get just how much the language has changed... So, while it is true that in an illiterate setting no Spanish speaker today uses the word "greco" meaning Greek, the word is in the DRAE. You may look it up. Latest edition.

And seeing how this word still exists even today, I think anyone who has read literature from El Greco's time (like, say, Don Quixote) won't have any trouble picturing the crazy, cool kids of the time preferring the demonym 'greco' instead of 'griego'. Then again what I'm pointing out is a matter of linguistic imagination. It is up to a historian to tell us where, as a matter of fact, did he get the nickname.

--Fdezcaminero (talk) 01:53, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

I suggest you read notes a and b. Johnbod (talk) 01:59, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, I do use Wikipedia because I think old-fashioned encyclopedias make mistakes too. And notes a and b are from Encyclopedia Britannica. But EB never says the Spanish name for the painter would be "el griego" and not "el greco". This is factually incorrect. And I still think EB is wrong in general, but who am I to prove it?

--Fdezcaminero (talk) 02:16, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Cornelia de Lange syndrome

It has been hypothesised that El Greco’s pictures include a child with Cornelia de Lange syndrome. It is only a hypothesis. JDAWiseman (talk) 22:24, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

WP:URFA/2020

There is a minor amount of uncited text, but considerable layout issues and MOS:SANDWICHing which should be addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:30, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi Sandy, points now being addressed. Ceoil (talk) 02:59, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ceoil: - I'm looking over this for URFA, and it's looking in good shape, but it looks like some of the later footnotes are misplaced (like the marriage one comes after the "The phrase "sunk in eccentricity", often encountered in such texts, in time developed into "madness"" bit instead of the madness one). I attempted a fix, but wound up breaking things. Do you have any idea of how to fix that? Hog Farm _Talk 03:09, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Also, the statement Thanks to the donations mainly of individuals and public benefit foundations the National Art Gallery raised 1.2 million dollars and purchased the painting.[105] Epitomizing the consensus of El Greco's impact, Jimmy Carter, the 39th President of the United States, said in April 1980 that El Greco was "the most extraordinary painter that ever came along back then" and that he was "maybe three or four centuries ahead of his time" seems misplaced, as it's at the end of a section discussing historiography, not a single painting. Hog Farm _Talk 03:13, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

??? The point surely is Carter's (speechwriter's) praise. Hog Farm, your comments on art articles are decidedly eccentric! Johnbod (talk) 04:28, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

@Johnbod: - my concern is primarily with the first sentence here Thanks to the donations mainly of individuals and public benefit foundations the National Art Gallery raised 1.2 million dollars and purchased the painting. Which painting is being referred to? We're going straight from art criticism and speculation about his eyesight in the prior paragraph to a reference to "the painting" and a purchase. I think the Carter quote fits in well, but the references here seem to be referring to a specific painting that it isn't clear what's being referred to. Should the first sentence be removed, or is there something that got accidentally ommitted earlier? Hog Farm _Talk 04:41, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I've just added something there. Questionable whether this particular purchase needs to be mentioned at all. Ewulp (talk) 04:52, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Ewulp that it could be taken out. Ceoil (talk) 17:27, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Marking satisfactory, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:01, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Nickname

The [a] note from the very opening of the article gives the IPA pronunciation of [el gre'ko] which I very much doubt is correct. The accent falls on the first syllable of Greco. I have changed it for now, even though the G may be pronounced as ɣ, so that's definitely worth taking a further look at. Splićanin (talk) 10:57, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Chapel in Fodele

The article currently contains a photo of the 11th century church of the Panagia in Fodele, captioned

Byzantine chapel at Fodele, Crete, in Greece, where El Greco was born

and with a footnote https://www.meetcrete.com/fodele-birthplace-of-the-painter-el-greco/ glossed as "Fodele-birthplace of El Greco".

However, there is nothing in the article or in the cited source showing any connection at all between El Greco and this chapel; this is a way of smuggling in the speculation (i.e. original research) that El Greco was familiar with the frescoes in this church. Now, it may well be that some reliable source does make this connection; if so, let's add it. But there isn't one today.

What's more, as the article clearly says, his birthplace is disputed, so presenting it in the caption as Fodele is inappropriate, and it is silly support that claim with a reference to a low-quality commercial web travel guide to Crete when we have far better sources (on both sides of the dispute) in the body of the article.

I made these points clearly in my edit summary, and User:Modernist reverted with no substantive explanation. --Macrakis (talk) 17:01, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think meetcrete.co is good enough to back a disputed claim on birthplace. Ceoil (talk) 17:32, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Meetcrete also includes:El Greco Museum in Fodele and this link: Byzantine chapel at Fodele, Crete, to the church in discussion, which is next door to the El Greco Museum...Modernist (talk) 22:13, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Even if it were undisputed that Fodele was the birthplace of El Greco, there is still nothing connecting this particular church to El Greco.

But in fact it is disputed. meetcrete is fine source for things like where the El Greco Museum is, but an awfully weak source for a historical claim, since we have many better ones in the body of the article. I don't doubt it when meetcrete says that the chapel is next to the museum, but that doesn't make it relevant to El Greco.

After all, even the meetcrete page about the chapel makes no connection to El Greco, just that it's another site worth visiting in the same village. --Macrakis (talk) 16:28, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• Read the text:El Greco Museum in Fodele, the church is clearly discussed...Modernist (talk) 17:10, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

First of all, if that page is being relied on for the connection of El Greco and the chapel, it is that page that should be referenced, not the current one.

But read that page carefully. It quotes a museum guard (!!) saying that unnamed "scientists from Spain" found handwritten notes where he mentioned that he grew up in the shadow of an 11th century Byzantine chapel. If we can find the publication by these "scientists", great! -- that should go in the "Early years" section as evidence for his birthplace, not as a footnote to a photo of the chapel. But as it stands, it is second-hand hearsay from a person with an axe to grind, and quoted by a not-terribly-solid promotional web site.

After all, if that "evidence" from the "Spanish scientists" were so dispositive, why haven't all El Greco scholars come around to it? --Macrakis (talk) 18:05, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Modernist and Ceoil: Modernist, please don't edit war. You haven't refuted any of the problems with the chapel photo, and you have added more text contradicting the body of the article.

• The only source (so far) for a connection between El Greco and this chapel is on this web page. That is not a reliable source: it is the self-published site of a non-notable individual. (See WP:SPS).
• Even if you accept that as a source, the site is repeating hearsay, things that the museum guard said to the writer.
• Even if you believe the hearsay, the museum guard's claim is based on anonymous "scientists from Spain", with no documentation.
• Even if you accept this anonymous claim, all it says about the chapel is that it was an 11th century chapel 25 km from Iraklion -- that does of course fit Fodele.
• Even if you accept that this is the chapel being referred to, the only connection is that he "grew up in [its] shadow".
• The body of the article reports that it is in dispute whether El Greco was born in Iraklion or in Fodele. A photo caption shouldn't contradict the article.

Given how tenuous (and disputed) the connection of El Greco with this chapel is, I see no reason to include a photo in the article. --Macrakis (talk) 17:15, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

• In my opinion it's referenced and it belongs in the article...Modernist (talk) 17:36, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

It is a very poor reference. See above. --Macrakis (talk) 17:43, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

• • The reference is a valid reference...Modernist (talk) 17:45, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Sounds like we need a third party to resolve our disagreement. I have filed an RFC at the reliable sources noticeboard. --Macrakis (talk) 20:05, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, i'm against inclusion, on the basis of poor sourcing. It seems dubious, frankly. Ceoil (talk) 21:02, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Ceoil here. Based on (not very extensive) research, it looks to me as if we're giving too much weight to the Fodele claim, which may be nothing more than a local legend. It was accepted in the early days of El Greco scholarship but seems to have been dismissed by art historians since the mid-20th century. Goldscheider, El Greco (2nd edition, 1949; p. 5) says: "Phodele, a village nestling between cliffs, near the sea and near Candia, the capital of Crete, in now named as Domenico Theotokópouli's birthplace. 1541 is said to be the year of his birth." A couple decades later, Larsen, El Greco and the Spanish Golden Age (1969) gives the birthplace as Candia and the date as 1541, with no mention of Fodele and expressing no uncertainty. Likewise no mention of Fodele or uncertainty in the El Greco of Toledo catalogue (1982; Candia is named pp 13, 15). The same is true for Zorilla, El Greco (2002), the National Gallery catalogue El Greco (2003), and Grove Art Online. Ewulp (talk) 01:57, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Ceoil and Ewulp. In a tourist-minded place like Crete, you are going to end up with a birthplace to take the coaches too, come hell, high water, or (sadly) heat dome. Johnbod (talk) 02:28, 15 August 2021 (UTC)