Talk:El Lissitzky

"Polytechnic Institute of Rima"

I'm guessing this is a typo for "Polytechnic Institute of Riga". -- Jmabel | Talk 23:12, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct, I fixed it. Sharp eye --Clngre 23:39, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Had gadya

Had gadya is a reference to a traditional song associated with Passover, is it not? Unless I'm wrong, this should probably be mentioned. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:14, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is, I'll mention that. --Clngre 23:39, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Lazar or Eliezar

Which of the above is his real given name? The article gives the first, but the only redirect to the article comes from the latter. If it's Eliezar (I know little about him, but that would make shortening to "El" more comprehensible), then the article should be corrected, and if it's Lazar, an appropriate redirect needs to be created. --Michael Snow 23:58, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

To be honest, I can't really say 100% because I think the exact spelling has something to do with how its spelt in Russian or translated from it. For example, I've seen his middle name as "Morduchovitch", "Markowich", "Markovich", etc. I'm just what is the best way to approach this issue other than by sheer Google popularity, in which case Lazar is the most common. For now I'll leave it at that and create redirects for the many variations. --Clngre 00:14, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

You may well be right on that; the Cyrillic form of his name should probably be added in parentheses. Multiple redirects is the way to go, then. As for the variations on the middle name, my instinct is to see a rendition like "Markovich", like the shortening of the first name to "El", as a way of making his Jewish roots less obvious to the public. I expect Morduchovitch, however transliterated, is correct. --Michael Snow 00:24, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I fully agree, I'll do that now. Also, if you know how to do the Cryillic form, please do, because I have no idea. --Clngre 00:27, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

In one of the biographies by Sophie Lissitzky Kuppers, Lissitzky's full name is Lazar Markovich Lissitzky.

Lazar is a version of the Hebrew name Eliezar. They are both his "real" given name. Marshall46 (talk) 12:29, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Rather delightful

Thanks for noticing our lack of great art articles. This is great stuff, particularly the selected works table. (Was that copied from some other article? If not, it should be made a template for some appropriate [set of] WikiProject[s]. +sj + 05:59, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. I made the table and I plan on expanding it. Even as a "selected works" I think its a bit too selective and skimpy --Clngre 14:32, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

Great

This is the best wikipedia, perhaps paper as well, article I have seen for a while. Well done to the contributors for their great job. --82.33.200.49 04:28, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I would have to agree with the above. I never heard of El Lissitzky until I came across this article. Bravo! Nice article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.74.192.210 (talk) 02:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Page vandalised

Thanks a bunch to the tosser who deleted the whole article "one of the best on the Wike site", replacing it with drivel. Grow up.

Side note: Page vandal

Side note: User 209.158.114.51 has already vandalised a number of pages. Any way to block him? (I know this really doesn't belong here, so feel free to remove this comment once something has been done)

Teyashim

Given all the vandalism that has gone on: I notice that Arba'ah Teyashim (Four Billy Goats) was turned into just Teyashim. Was this a deliberate change (i.e. the title was previously wrong) or an accidentally introduced error? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:08, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm pretty sure teyashim means male goat, and I just assume "Arba'ah" means four. ? I really forget. If you know of anyone that speaks Hebrew and can confirm this, it'd be great. --Clngre 01:50, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I changed the title back to Arba'ah Teyashim. Looking at the history, it appears that originally the title was Teyashim. However, someone corrected the title shortly after. It seems that it was later reverted when someone was removing vandalism. "Arba'ah" does mean four. The cover of the book clearly says Arba'ah Teyashim and there are various representations of four (4, IV, the letter dalet, etc.)

If anyone feels that this change is wrong, please explain why.

Featured article review of December 8, 2005

This review resulted in the passing of a new version of the article. Some minor extant issues remain unsolved, including empty section "avant garde", remove or add content.

This version was promoted in March, and has not really changed much. Some links were fixed, and I note the addition of an invisible comment asking for a clarification on one issue. All other changes were copyediting, image moving and such. Tuf-Kat 06:49, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

• Excellent article. Technical issues include, two unreferenced quotes: one from an "one English newspaper columnist" and one from his own autobiography(!). Note 3 is not properly referenced (references quotes but does not provide a page number). The "The avant garde" section has no text (why do so many article have sections without text? what is that suppose to accomplish?). Otherwise, it is an amazing article. --maclean25 22:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I removed the unreferenced quotation by "one English newspaper columnist" and added the footnote to his autobiography. "The avant garde" section was re-named to "Avant garde" per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings). That section does not have text but can used to discuss his impact on avant garde and tie the three subsections together. I do not believe I am qualified to write such an introduction. --maclean25 05:39, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
    • I think that it's meant to be a super-heading only. It's poor organization rather than an empty section. Jkelly 05:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

OTRS

WTF is OTRS? (I believe they were all Jews. Who is in doubt?) - Jmabel | Talk 20:10, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

interwiki

hello everybody,
can someone add the interwiki to the article on the hebrew wikipedia - he:אל ליסיצקי? the "Spam protection filter" does not agree to the adding. thanks, 88.153.194.158 19:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I just added it. Earlier today Mzlla removed a blacklisted link. That looks like it was the problem. ~CS 14:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

El Lissitzky's teacher

In the El Lissitzky book Life Letters Texts (Thames & Hudson, 1980) by Sophie Lissitzky-Kuppers, Lissitzky's teacher/advisor/mentor's name is Yuri Penn, as opposed to Yehuda, or Jehuda Pen. I thought this might be of relevance.

Dudeglove 21:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Victory Over the Sun

'In February of 1920, under the leadership of Malevich, the group worked on a "suprematist ballet", choreographed by Nina Kogan, and the precursor to Aleksander Kruchenykh's influential futurist opera, Victory Over the Sun.' Victory Over the Sun was produced at the Luna Park Theatre in Petersburg in December 1913 (Ref Gray, The Russian Experiment in Art); I think that the dates are mixed up here? 84.55.153.98 (talk) 14:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to remove date-autoformatting

Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether or not dates are autoformatted. MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

Disadvantages of date-autoformatting

• (1) In-house only

• (a) It works only for the WP "elite".
• (b) To our readers out there, it displays all-too-common inconsistencies in raw formatting in bright-blue underlined text, yet conceals them from WPians who are logged in and have chosen preferences.
• (c) It causes visitors to query why dates are bright-blue and underlined.

• (2) Avoids what are merely trivial differences

• (a) It is trivial whether the order is day–month or month–day. It is more trivial than color/colour and realise/realize, yet our consistency-within-article policy on spelling (WP:ENGVAR) has worked very well. English-speakers readily recognise both date formats; all dates after our signatures are international, and no one objects.

• (3) Colour-clutter: the bright-blue underlining of all dates

• (a) It dilutes the impact of high-value links.
• (b) It makes the text slightly harder to read.
• (c) It doesn't improve the appearance of the page.

• (4) Typos and misunderstood coding

• (a) There's a disappointing error-rate in keying in the auto-function; not bracketing the year, and enclosing the whole date in one set of brackets, are examples.
• (b) Once autoformatting is removed, mixtures of US and international formats are revealed in display mode, where they are much easier for WPians to pick up than in edit mode; so is the use of the wrong format in country-related articles.
• (c) Many WPians don't understand date-autoformatting—in particular, how if differs from ordinary linking; often it's applied simply because it's part of the furniture.

• (5) Edit-mode clutter

• (a) It's more work to enter an autoformatted date, and it doesn't make the edit-mode text any easier to read for subsequent editors.

• (6) Limited application

• (a) It's incompatible with date ranges ("January 3–9, 1998", or "3–9 January 1998", and "February–April 2006") and slashed dates ("the night of May 21/22", or "... 21/22 May").
• (b) By policy, we avoid date autoformatting in such places as quotations; the removal of autoformatting avoids this inconsistency.

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. I'm seeking feedback about this proposal to remove it from the main text (using a script) in about a week's time on a trial basis/ The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. Tony (talk) 08:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

FAR Discussion

Article gives June 3, 1918, as date for his diploma from Riga - but Curl gives "studied at Damstadt from 1909, travelled, and graduated in architecture from Riga in 1915, after which (1919) he worked with Marc Chagall" anyone got any further clarifications? --Joopercoopers (talk) 23:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

• As I understand, "Riga" were a classes of former Riga Polytechnical in Moscow that were relocated in fear of German occupation (which did happen in September 1917). Evacuation from Riga was quite massive, some Moscow factories were running on the evacuated equipment into 1980s. Lissitzky travelled to Russia via Switzerland and Balkans (page 69) (Switzerland was inevitable, as for Balkans - ??? - this road was apparently closed by Hungary, Bulgaria and Turkey, must be re-checked). I doubt that Lissitzky had any chances of physically being present in Riga in 1914 - the city, close to the front line and having a high share of native Germans was on above-average security alert, and traditionally anti-semitic (Courland laws on Jews were tighter than in Russia proper although not as bad as Finland), not a safe place for a Jew in the middle of a war. NVO (talk) 03:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Formatting/referencing issues

As there are quite a few editors on the article, need to agree on:

• Citation format (I already moved some of the references disclosed inline in full into "references" heading)
• Which most fundamental source should be used for basic information, i.t dates of birth, education etc. While there are some printed sources that are online through googlebooks and can be used immediately, these are tertiary info (not a proper biography). NVO (talk) 00:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The sources that look good to me that have been in the article are the Monuments of the Future. Getty Institute - Monuments to the Future: Designs by El Lissitzky. and Lissitzky-Kuppers, Sophie (1980). El Lissitzky, life, letters, texts. Thames and Hudson. ISBN 0-500-23090-0. The latter should have page numbers in the inline cites and the former (imo the best webpage I've seen on Lissitzky) can link more specifically to the sections on the their site. This can expand the citation section and be more specific. Maybe I'll do that later. I'm accessing Lissitzky-Kuppers 1980 at the library this weekend. These two books I'm also accessing at the library this weekend [1][2] I have copies of these [3][4] that have information about Lissitzky. NVO, I know you can prepare a perfect bibliography of Soviet/Russian sources which I hope you do! dvdrw 00:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

PS - all the links in the table to mayakovsky.com are gone. I'll delete them in a little bit when there won't be an edit conflict. They are links to illustrations to Mayakovsky's, Dlia golosa The cover is at ibiblio, that should suffice for the table. Do they link for anyone else, I'm just seeing a site selling domain names when I click. I wish I could operate the link checker to find any that I don't see since there are a lot of links in the table.dvdrw 01:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Well if you guys have access to specific bios, I'll step back for now - Curl's give a nice concise encyclo entry and Mallgrave weaves him in and out of the theory narrative, so a bio would probably be better - give me a shout if you're missing anything. --Joopercoopers (talk) 01:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I like what you are doing. I like those sources especially Mallgrave. dvdrw 01:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

1939 New York World's Fair

Just tagged as {{dubious}},[5] the line about Lissitzky's designs involving the 1939 New York World's Fair may be sourced to El Lissitzky: Beyond the Abstract Cabinet : Photography, Design, Collaboration on page 228.[6] Wish there were illustrations and more information. dvdrw 01:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

• I found alternative evidence, but it appears that his designs were considered for the show in 1938 but never materialized (his name disappears from nearly 100 pages of official documents on NY fair while still appears in domestic fairs). Change that if you're sure. NVO (talk) 03:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Interesting source on 1919-1920 in Vitebsk

[7]

Page 63-64 author argues that it was Malevich who borrowed Lissitzky' ideas of architectons, not the other way round. Although the conjecture seems weak to me. NVO (talk) 04:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Quote

The quote sourced to formDefined (which doesn't link incidentally) beginning, "The artist constructs a new symbol with his brush." could better be sourced to Tupitsyn 1999 p. 9[8] or most likely earlier somewhere. dvdrw 05:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

long foldouts

From legacy section: "In issue #2 he included multiple fold-out pages, presented in concert with other folded pages that together produced design combinations and a narrative structure that was completely original at the time."

It appears that the thing emerged earlier, in spring of 1928, with the brochure for the Cologne exhibition. (Tolstoy, p.104 - I'll try to scan it) USSR im Bau started 1930. NVO (talk) 06:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Foldout for the 1928 Press Expo in Cologne - I presume the legacy section ment exactly this. Are you sure it was such a great novelty? p.s. most of the odd artefacts seen here are actual exhibits for the this show

The table

Добрый день. Do we need the two sources at the bottom of the table? I am inclined to delete them as they are not labeled informatively imo and they are redundant, since every link under the media heading is a source in a sense. Current note 36.^ Merz No. 8/9 at sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu can be tabulated as well in the media column which would help the notes section. Great work yesterday everyone! dvdrw 19:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC) PS I just made these edits to the table.[9] Feel free to undo them if you disagree. dvdrw 19:51, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. Also, what about format for one-line citations? should it be blockquote or flat text? I'm on a 1920px/small fonts monitor, so my "one line" may be three on a different setup. NVO (talk) 21:08, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The way you've done them is fine, that's how they seem to me like they should be done. They display as one-line for me too, some with more may be fine as well. I wouldn't necessarily limit yourself to one line per citation. dvdrw 23:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

• Second thought hovering for a while: do we need the table at all or at least links to individual drawings? I checked other FAs, nothing like this. NVO (talk) 22:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
• Uncertain keep. I say we keep the table for now, but that is just one editors opinion. I think it indexes some images quite nicely unless there is a consensus to delete here or at the FAR page I think we should keep it. Or if you are very convinced we should delete it maybe we should. FAs don't have to be too much the same, I've seen large tables in some music ones and others but I can't recall where. dvdrw 22:40, 2 October 2008 (UTC) I looked again and couldn't find any and am leaning more towards delete. dvdrw 23:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

After some thought, and upon your suggestion I deleted it.[10] Again feel free to undo and discuss if anyone disagrees. Most of the information is provided in links throughout the article. Most of the images are already indexed at the ibiblio site in the external links and at the getty site in the references. I deleted the see also section, all the articles included were linked in the text already. dvdrw 19:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Now I'm tempted to restore it, sorry for being wishy-washy, but we are down to only a few images since they are fair use and since this is an artist bio the reader is going to be looking for them. DVD (talk) 20:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Images

I just restored the en: versions of this article's images and added fair use. Could anyone please double check them for me? Thanks, dvdrw 00:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

From the article

I trimmed the following section from the article (merging the cited parts) because it was mostly uncited, if anyone wants to add it back please use inline citations. DVD (talk) 20:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Legacy

Throughout his career, El Lissitzky advanced a number of methods, ideas, and movements that had a large and significant impact on contemporary art — particularly in graphic design, exhibition design, and architecture, partly because of his constant expansion and experimentation into many different mediums and styles, and his spirit of innovation in them. He was one of the principal innovators of modern typography and photomontage, both new at the time.

El Lissitzky was also preoccupied from early to late career with book design. He thought of the book as a dynamic object, a "unity of acoustics and optics" requiring the viewer's active involvement. When working on USSR im bau he took his experimentation and innovation with book design to an extreme. In issue #2 he included multiple fold-out pages, presented in concert with other folded pages that together produced design combinations and a narrative structure that was completely original at the time. He also invested great effort in establishing international links between artists and promoting new ideas, helping the avant-garde spread across Europe. This started locally with UNOVIS, where he attempted to spread and promote new art primarily in Russia, and reached its peak with his stay in Germany, where he exchanged ideas internationally and helped influence the German Bauhaus and Dutch De Stijl movements.

Along with his efforts towards the advancement of propaganda art, El Lissitzky worked tirelessly for ways to better life with art. For this purpose he chose to study architecture, which directly affects and contributes to society. He was an ardent supporter of the Communist ideology and devoted a great part of his life and energy to its service. Through his Prouns, Utopian models for a new and better world were developed. This approach, in which the artist creates art with socially defined purpose, could aptly be summarized with his edict "das zielbewußte Schaffen" — "task oriented creation."

In his later years El Lissitzky brought revolutionary change to exhibition design, garnering him respect internationally as well as the approval of his own government. In exhibition and propaganda design, he found an area where he could apply his creative forces in the service of the state. In his autobiography (written in June 1941, and later edited and released by his wife), El Lissitzky wrote, "1926. My most important work as an artist begins: the creation of exhibitions."

A high number of El Lissitzky's work is on permanent display in galleries worldwide. Much of his collection of Proun works can be viewed in the Van Abbemuseum in the Netherlands, with other abstract works on display in Sprengel Museum in Hannover, Germany. His work is also part of the Peggy Guggenheim Collection in Venice, Italy.

Article in Russian (Oct.2008): Lissitsky's printshop

As seen from the back - as close as I could get to it. Trees and fences all around.

The building pictured here, located at 55.777277°N 37.610828°E / 55.777277; 37.610828 17, 1st Samotechny Lane, is Lissitsky's sole tangible work of architecture. The building was commissioned in 1928 by Ogonyok magazine as a printshop (hey, my own grandfather, then a student at Mining Academy, moonlighted at Ogonyok as packaging workhand at the same time, although he perhaps graduated before the new printshop was completed). The fact that Lissitsky indeed designed it has been concurred by his son now living in Spain. In June 2007 the independent Russky Avangard foundation filed a request for listing the building on the heritage register. In September 2007 the city commission (Moskomnasledie) approved the request and passed it to the city government for a final approval ... which did not happen. Finally, in October 2008 the abandoned building burnt down (the photo shows the least damaged south end of the building, it's far worse on the sides, no roof, no ceilings; Googlemaps image was apparently taken before the fire). NVO (talk) 08:02, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

• Source: Ilyicheva, Anna (2008). "Avangard na samoteke (Авангард "на cамотеке")" (in Russian). lenta.ru. NVO (talk) 08:38, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

This should be added to the article, maybe in the section "Horizontal skyscrapers" since it is about his architectural projects. I am going to read the source in a few hours and add a rendition of what NVO wrote with the picture, unless someone else does before then. DVD 23:57, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, I added a short paragraph using what you wrote here and added your photo. Please proof read it. BTW, It really gives me the creeps that the building was burned in the same month that we were working on it during WP:FAR :( DVD 01:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

• Printing plant of "Ogonyok" magazine by El Lissitzky

Igor Kazus (talk) 06:51, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

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WP:URFA/2020

I'm reviewing this old featured article (promoted in 2005; last reviewed in 2008) as part of WP:URFA/2020, an effort to ensure that older FAs continue to meet the criteria. At the moment, the article contains a significant amount of uncited text, including for analytical statements that clearly require citations (e.g. This ambition laced all of his work; some of his most challenging and innovative works; Lissitzky was devoted to the idea of creating art with power and purpose, art that could invoke change). A related problem is that many prominent sources are cited only rarely or not at all, for instance Margolin 1997, Tupitsyn 1999, Perloff and Reed 2003, etc. I thus doubt that the article is "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature", as required by crit. 1c. Finally, the article seems to lack information about Lissitzky's legacy, his influence on later artists, and scholars' perspectives on his work, raising doubts about its comprehensiveness. There are also smaller issues: some citations lack page numbers, "Ilyicheva" does not correspond to an entry in the references section, and the lead contains information not found in the body. Hopefully these concerns can be resolved; otherwise, the article may be listed at featured article review, where editors will consider whether it should remain an FA. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:36, 22 May 2022 (UTC)