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Talk:Elbingian

Latest comment: 10 months ago by Sarcelles in topic Northern Low German vs. East Low German
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1882

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"The 1882 edition of dictionary of dialects Preußisches Wörterbuch includes Mundart der Elbinger Höhe using this wording."
which is: H. Frischbier's Preußisches Wörterbuch: Ost- und westpreußische Provinzialismen in alphabetischer Folge, vol. I: A — K, Berlin, 1882
  • Where? On p. XIV (section Abkürzungen) it mentions:
    "Spook. Datt Spook. Mundart der Elbinger Höhe. Von D. Neue Pr. Prov.-Bl. IV 470 475 [Auch als Sonderabdruck im Verlage von Neumann-Hartmann in Elbing o. J. erschienen. Die Zahlen bezeichnen die Seitenzahlen der Prov.-Bl.]
    So that's:
    Mundart der Elbinger Höhe. Mitgetheilt von D. Datt Spook, in: Neue Preußische Provinzial-Blätter. Mit Beiträgen von [...]. Im Namen der Alterthums-Gesellschaft Prussia herausgegeben von Dr. A. Hagen. Jahrgang 1847. Juli – December. / Band IV., Königsberg, 1847, p. 470–475 ([4])
    That's also mentioned elsehwere, e.g. in:
    Twöschen Wiessel on Noacht. Plattdietsche Gedichte von Robert Dorr, Neumann-Hartmannsche Buchhandlung, Elbing, 1862, at the end at "In demselben Verlage erschien: [...]" ([5])
  • Relevance? If Frischbier only cites the title of another work and doesn't write about a dialect or the classification of dialects, it has no scientific relevance, no scientific back-up. The author could have called it "Datt Spook in the best Prussian dialect" and in case of proper citing one would have to copy it, but that wouldn't mean it's really the best Prussian dialect.

--10:33, 18 August 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DE:3726:EF88:940E:866B:DF45:F8F3 (talk)

Elbing

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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

From the article:

In Elbing, no German dialect was spoken for long.[1]

Per Ziesemer (and others like Wiesinger and Heinel),[2][3][4] in Elbing (and Pr. Holland, Marienburg, Freystadt, Deutsch Eylau etc.) the High Prussian dialect Oberländisch was spoken, while the Elbinger Höhe (lit. Elbingian Height) is north/north-east of Elbing (maybe see also this map). Hence: Even though Mitzka's statement isn't wrong, it's unrelated as this article is about the dialect of the Elbinger Höhe and not about the High Prussian dialect Oberländisch which was spoken in Elbing.

References

  1. ^ Mitzka, Walther. Grundzüge nordostdeutscher Sprachgeschichte. N. G. Elwert Verlag, Marburg, 1959, p. 131 (originally: Max Niemeyer Verlag, Halle/Saale, 1937)
  2. ^ Walther Ziesemer, Die ostpreußischen Mundarten. Proben und Darstellung, Ferdinand Hirt, Breslau 1924, p. 121 and map Die ostpreußischen Mundarten ([1])
  3. ^ Peter Wiesinger, Zur Entwicklungsgeschichte der hochpreußischen Mundarten, in: Peter Wiesinger, edited by Franz Patocka, Strukturelle historische Dialektologie des Deutschen: Strukturhistorische und strukturgeographische Studien zur Vokalentwicklung deutscher Dialekte, Georg Olms Verlag, Hildesheim / Zürich / New York, 2017, p. 475ff., here p. 475 ([2])
  4. ^ E. Heinel, Erinnerungen. 2. Die Stadt Marienburg, in: Neue Preußische Provinzial-Blätter. Jahrgang 1849. Juli – December, Königsberg, 1849, p. 161ff., here p. 174 ([3])

--2003:DE:3700:672F:8567:9BE6:1822:E107 (talk) 01:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Northern Low German vs. East Low German

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Latest comment: 10 months ago7 comments2 people in discussion

Regarding edits like this, this and this, they are:

And regarding the claim "I have foundedly rejected this concept [West/East Low German] and you know this": Nowhere that I know of this was foundedly rejected. Rejected it was by referring to Lameli and having the above flaws (WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT, WP:OR/WP:VERIFY, WP:RELIABILITY).

References

  1. ^ Peter Wiesinger, Die Einteilung der deutschen Dialekte, in: Dialektologie: Ein Handbuch zur deutschen und allgemeinen Dialektforschung, edited by Werner Besch, Ulrich Knoop, Wolfgang Putschke, Herbert Ernst Wiegand, 2nd vol., Walter de Gruyter: Berlin / New York, 1983, p. 807ff., here p. 823, 826ff. & 830 (incl. maps 47.2, 47.3 and 47.4)
  2. ^ Dieter Stellmacher, Niederdeutsch: Formen und Forschungen (series: Reihe Germanistische Linguistik 31, edited by Helmut Henne, Horst Sitta, Herbert Ernst Wiegand), Max Niemeyer Verlag: Tübingen, 1981, p. 12
  3. ^ Dieter Stellmacher, Ostniederdeutsch, in: Lexikon der Germanistischen Linguistik, edited by Hans Peter Althaus, Helmut Henne, Herbert Ernst Wiegand, 2nd ed., Max Niemeyer Verlag: Tübingen, 1980, p. 464ff., here p. 464f. & 467
  4. ^ Peter von Polenz, Geschichte der deutschen Sprache. 10th ed., edited by Norbert Richard Wolf, Walter de Gruyter, Berlin / New York, 2009, p. 27; 11th ed., edited by Norbert Richard Wolf, Walter de Gruyter: Berlin / Boston, 2020, p. 50
  5. ^ Hermann Niebaum, Jürgen Macha, Einführung in die Dialektologie des Deutschen. 2nd ed., Max Niemeyer Verlag: Tübingen, 2006, p. 220f.; 3rd. ed., Walter de Gruyter: Berlin / Boston, 2014, p. 250f. [1st ed. 1999]
  6. ^ Stephen Barbour, Patrick Stevenson, Variation in German: A critical approach to German sociolinguistics, Cambridge University Press, 1990, p. 85f.
  7. ^ Michael Elmentaler, Anja Voeste, Areale Variation im Deutschen historisch: Mittelalter und Frühe Neuzeit, in: Sprache und Raum: Ein internationales Handbuch der Sprachvariation. Band 4: Deutsch, edited by Joachim Herrgen and Jürgen Erich Schmidt with assistance by Hanna Fischer and Brigitte Ganswindt, series: Handbücher zur Sprach- und Kommunikationswissenschaft (Handbooks of Linguistics and Communication Science / Manuels de linguistique et des sciences de communication) (HSK) 30.4, Walter de Gruyter: Berlin / Boston, 2019, p. 61ff., having the subsections Westniederdeutsch (Westfälisch, Ostfälisch, Nordniederdeutsch) on p. 71ff. and Ostniederdeutsch (Brandenburgisch, Mecklenburgisch, Vorpommersch, Mittelpommersch, Ostpommersch, Niederpreußisch) on p. 73ff. [note: already the sub-chapter titles mention West and East Low German with their sub-dialcts]
  8. ^ Jan Goossens, Deutsche Dialektologie (series: Sammlung Göschen 2205), Walter de Gruyter: Berlin / New York, 1977, p. 123–125
  9. ^ Reinhard Goltz, Andrea Kleene, Niederdeutsch, in: Handbuch der Sprachminderheiten in Deutschland, edited by Rahel Beyer, Albrecht Plewnia, Narr Francke Attempto Verlag: Tübingen, 2020, p. 171ff., here p. 191 [also giving sub- and sub-sub-dialects, like there is e.g. Westniederdeutsch > Westfälisch > Münsterländisch]
  10. ^ Rolf Bergmann, Claudine Moulin, Nikolaus Ruge with assistance by Natalia Filatkina, Falko Klaes, Andrea Rapp, Alt- und Mittelhochdeutsch: Arbeitsbuch zur Grammatik der älteren deutschen Sprachstufen und zur deutschen Sprachgeschichte, 9th ed., Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 2016, p. 203
  11. ^ Gabriele Graefen, Martina Liedke-Göbel, Germanistische Sprachwissenschaft: Deutsch als Erst-, Zweit- oder Fremdsprache, 3rd ed., Narr Francke Attempto Verlag: Tübingen, 2020 [1st ed. 2008, 2nd 2012], p. 31
  12. ^ Reinhard Pilkmann, Anmerkungen zur Lautgeographie der Mundarten im Altkreis Soest, in: Soest: Stadt – Territorium – Reich: Festschrift zum hundertjährigen Bestehen des Vereins für Geschichte und Heimatpflege Soest mit Beiträgen zur Stadt-, Landes- und Hansegeschichte, edited by Gerhard Köhn, Westfälische Verlagsbuchhandlung Mocker & Jahn: Soest, 1981, p. 531ff., here p. 536
  13. ^ Helmut Glück, Michael Rödel (eds.), Metzler Lexikon Sprache, 5th ed., J. B. Metzler Verlag: Stuttgart, 2016, p. 488 s.v. Ostpommersch [note: entry is about Ostpommersch, but also mentions East Low German and the other sub-dialects]

--01:33, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Work for Wikipedia is not the result of votes. It is about using methodically good swources.

Sarcelles (talk) 06:15, 26 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Unfortunately, no source was provided for the claim that Low Prussian is Northern Low German. And "methodically good" is subjective, and no excuse for the violations of WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT, WP:OR/WP:VERIFY, WP:RELIABILITY. --10:30, 26 December 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DE:370C:38A6:CCC3:BAC8:B246:9099 (talk)
@Sarcelles: I agree with most of the IPs points. Lameli's classification is interesting and quite compelling, but has not all of a sudden invalidated the long-standing East/West classification. You will need secondary sources (and just more than one) and of course consensus before altering the infobox in multiple articles as if it was the mainstream communis opinio. Also, you can not apply Lameli's research to Low German varieties outside of its scope. That's WP:OR. I advise to self-revert here (and everywhere else). –Austronesier (talk) 17:47, 3 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
The concept of East Low German is refuted.
[1] Sarcelles (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
No it's not. A swallow does not a summer make. See our previous comments. And whatever Lameli has proposed, it does not apply to Elbingian. I wouldn't have qualms to mention potential conflicts with the traditional classification based on a source that presents qualitative criteria, but Lameli's method is quantiative (a black box!), so based on its very nature one can not draw any conclusions about varieties outside of its scope. –Austronesier (talk) 10:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
What is the respective case for quality and quantity? I will have a look into the book mentioned soon. Sarcelles (talk) 10:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Lameli parametrized dialect differences and put all the parameters into a distance-measuring algorithm. So dialect A and B are classified as more closely related to each other than to C based on clustering of similarities, and not based on specific identifiable qualitative/structural features. And if dialect D is not included in the dataset, you cannot make any statement about it. Any assumption about which dialect group it might cluster with if it were included is entirely speculative.
OTOH, when dialectologists use diagnostic qualitative criteria (e.g. Wiesinger's focus on the fate of certain long vowels and diphthongs) for their classification, one can apply these criteria (we can't because of WP:SYNTH) to dialects that are not included in the original scope of dialects compared.
Lameli's work is important and deserves a mention in every article where his research affect the "traditional" classification. But not as the final word, this would violate WP:UNDUE. Every novel approach needs to find its way into multiple reliable secondary sources that endorse it before we can present it at as state of the art. So the basic classification scheme including the one applied in the infobox should remain "conservative" (including the East/West split of Low German). And Lameli's classification has no place at all in articles about varieties outside of its scope. All this is a simple corollary of basic WP rules. –Austronesier (talk) 20:52, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
https://nds.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neddersassisch&oldid=165427 was an edit in 2008, where the Low German article on West Low German
(Low Saxon) was made a redirect to the article on Low German. This was an article mainly shaped by me at the point of its death. Currently the article starts with Plattdüütsch (Neddersassisch) is meaning Low German (Low Saxon) is.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overleg:Nedersaksisch#Oost-Nederduits is where User:Slomox says, that East Low German versus West Low German only has historical relevance, but is not a linguistic border. He is the author of a dictionary of Low German dialects in general: https://plattmakers.de/en Sarcelles (talk) 19:42, 6 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
  1. ^ Alfred Lameli, Strukturen im Sprachraum. Analysen zur arealtypologischen Komplexität der Dialekte in Deutschland., Berlin, Boston 2013, p. 188
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