Talk:Eldridge Street Synagogue

Untitled

If anyone has a picture of the building, I think one inside and one outside picture would be appropriate, however I can't find any public domain pictures on the net, so if anyone has any pics they've taken that would be very useful. --Bachrach44 15:16, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Photo's of Synagogue

I'm pretty sure that The Eldridge Street Synagogue will be happy to include more photo's on the site.--Mare 21:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

lede

Eldridge street isn't exactly among the oldest East European synagoguues built by Ashkenazi Jews. Beth Israel Philadelphia built its Crown Street building in 1849 (philadelphia already had seen buildings erected by German and Sepahardi congregations. San francisco was founded with two 1851 congregations, Emaneul for Germans as Sherityh Israel for Poles. Sherith Israel put a building up in 1854. Baltimore's B'nai Israel on Lloyd Street went up - for East European Jews - in 1876. I'm pretty sure there were other East European buildings. As for surviving buildings, B'nai Israel's building is still there.OldShul (talk) 13:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)OldShul

Agreed. I deleted the sentence "The Eldridge Street Synagogue is the first synagogue erected in the United States by Eastern European Jews." as this is almost certainly not correct. Oncenawhile (talk) 11:25, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Referenced. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:02, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Source for Walter Sedovic Architects involvement.

There's been some edit warring here over the involvement of an architecture firm, with nobody doing their homework. Here's a reliable source: Spence, Rebecca (August 3, 2007). "Synagogues Throw Energy Behind Green Movement". The Forward.: "In New York City, the Eldridge Street Project, dedicated to preserving Jewish life at the historic Lower East Side synagogue built in 1887, has been working on its 20-year restoration project from a green perspective. ... Jill Gotthelf, an architect and associate at Walter Sedovic Architects who has worked on the restoration since 1990, said that synagogues and Jewish organizations have caught on to green building over the past few years ... because it is finally a more affordable proposition. --John Nagle (talk) 16:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Further Verification of Walter Sedovic Architect's Involvement

New York Magazine... Reconstructionist Judaism Two Jewish cultural centers reinvent themselves for the demographics of a changing city.

By Justin Davidson.

Published Jan 7, 2008

The architects, Walter Sedovic and Jill H. Gotthelf, avoided scrubbing away its patina of experience. They didn’t strip the mottled gloss off the wood and start again; they softened and reflowed the old finish, retaining the magnificent antiquity of the paneling. It’s no more authentic to roll time back to 1907 than it would be to choose a day twenty years before, but Sedovic and Gotthelf’s approach has the great virtue of enshrining a narrative, of intimating what it might have felt like to seek a little grandeur here when the Lower East Side was a wriggling mass of people.

http://nymag.com/arts/architecture/reviews/42591/

Littlefacts (talk) 17:28, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

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Eldridge Street Synagogue is a synagogue and National Historic Landmark in the neighborhood of Chinatown in Manhattan, New York City. Built in 1887, it was one of the first synagogues erected in the United States by Eastern European Jews. The Moorish Revival building has a 70-foot-high (21 m) dome, a barrel-vaulted ceiling, and stained-glass rose windows.

Photograph credit: Rhododendrites

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New detail map of Lower East Side

I'd like to thank Epicgenius for recent edits that improve the article. I'm intrigued by the detail map of the section of lower Manhattan that includes the site of the synagogue. Is this map in Serbian? Is there a particular reason to display it in that language? Paulmlieberman (talk) 17:18, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

@Paulmlieberman, thank you, I appreciate it.

Re. the map: it is indeed displaying in Serbian due to an OpenStreetMap bug. There is more information about this bug at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Serbian place names displayed on Manhattan maps, phab:T230013, and phab:T195318. I have no idea how to fix the bug over at OSM, but hopefully this gets resolved soon. – Epicgenius (talk) 17:26, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

@Epicgenius, I'm looking into this. The link in the synagogue article is, as far as I can tell (I've removed the opening and closing curly braces so WP doesn't try to process it):

district_map = Maplink|frame=yes|plain=yes|frame-align=center|frame-width=300|frame-height=300|zoom=14|type=point|marker=|title=Eldridge Street Synagogue

What is this a link to? I suspect it's a link to a file in wikimedia, but, if so, how do I find it? And, if I can find the corresponding map on OpenStreetMap, edit it, fix it, I don't know how to then replace the current street map in wikimedia, or create a new one, and change the link in the Eldridge Street Synagogue article. Paulmlieberman (talk) 15:44, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Paulmlieberman, that is correct; this is the wikicode that allows the map to be displayed. The data is taken from OpenStreetMap, where (funnily enough), the English names for Manhattan neighborhoods are correctly displayed. This is then processed through Wikimedia Maps. However, the Wikimedia Maps website also displays Manhattan neighborhood names in English.

Somehow, when the map from Wikimedia Maps was transcluded onto this article, the names got translated into Serbian. This is particularly strange, as this issue only occurs when the map is transcluded directly onto articles; the original maps from OSM and Wikimedia Maps don't have this issue. I have no idea why this is happening, because the two original maps both display the English names. I tried a hard purge of this page to force the map to display the English names, but this seems not to work. For now, I'd suggest that you subscribe to, and comment on, the Phabricator tickets that I linked above. – Epicgenius (talk) 17:07, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Village Pump conversation archived at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 212#Serbian place names displayed on Manhattan maps. TSventon (talk) 13:32, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

It's fixed! It's fixed! Somehow, the OpenStreetMap map is now in English. I checked, and Tribeca is fixed too. What's interesting is that, if you view an old version of the article, the map is in English there too. This makes sense, as the article does not actually contain the image, but, rather, a link to the OpenStreetMap website. Paulmlieberman (talk) 14:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton talk 05:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

The Eldridge Street Synagogue

• ... that worshippers at the Eldridge Street Synagogue once had to visit local schools and stores to find ten men for a service? Source: Polland, Annie; Moyers, Bill (2009). Landmark of the Spirit: The Eldridge Street Synagogue. Yale University Press. p. 134.
  • ALT1: ... that for several years, members of the Eldridge Street Synagogue could not afford to reopen their own safe? Source: Dunlap, David W. (April 5, 1985). "Synagogue Cracks Safe to Find Riches". The New York Times.
  • ALT2: ... that in 1985, members of the Eldridge Street Synagogue found up to $40,000 worth of objects in a safe that they could not afford to reopen? Source: Dunlap, David W. (April 5, 1985). "Synagogue Cracks Safe to Find Riches". The New York Times.
  • ALT3: ... that the architects of the Eldridge Street Synagogue were Catholics who had never designed a synagogue before? Source: Polland & Moyers 2009, p. 22.
  • ALT4: ... that New York City's Eldridge Street Synagogue, one of the first synagogues erected in the U.S. by Eastern European Jews, is now a museum in Chinatown? Source: Dunlap, David W. (2004). From Abyssinian to Zion: A Guide to Manhattan's Houses of Worship. New York: Columbia University Press. pp. 60–61; Dunlap, David W. (June 11, 2014). "In Chinatown, Remembering the Origins of a 126-Year-Old Synagogue". The New York Times.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Levi Marhabi
  • Comment: more hooks later

5x expanded by Epicgenius (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 653 past nominations.

Epicgenius (talk) 14:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC).

• Approved: article is long enough, looks to be in great shape and was expanded within the window. Hooks are sourced, interesting and check out: I must admit to finding ALT2 a little opaque (how could they find objects in a locked safe?), but ALT0, ALT1 and ALT3 are all excellent (ALT4 is fine, but a little less enticing than the others). QPQ is done. Nice work. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:15, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Eldridge Street Synagogue/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Epicgenius (talk · contribs) 01:38, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 04:48, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I will also do a review of this soon.--ZKang123 (talk) 04:48, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

The article is rather extensive so the review will be slow as I look over. I'm curious to note that for this article, you have the history part before the architecture. Not an issue, just noting.--ZKang123 (talk) 08:59, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Copy changes

Lead

• Is it conventional to just write "U.S." in the lead without first mentioning what U.S. stands for (it's obvious, but curious whether actually there's a need to spell out).
  • I think either is fine, though I have removed this per my comment immediately below. Epicgenius (talk) 14:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
• In fact, I wonder if it's necessary to put "New York, U.S.", given in some of your other building articles, that's not written in.
  • I have removed it. This was added by someone else, but it seems slightly unnecessary, I think. Not only is NYC fairly well known, but the lead itself mentions that Eldridge Street was one of the first Eastern European synagogue buildings in the US, so that part is definitely redundant. Epicgenius (talk) 14:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
• Beth Hamedrash, with congregants – I don't think the comma is necessary
  • Removed. Epicgenius (talk) 14:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
• dwindled significantly starting in the 1920s – can remove "starting"
  • Removed. Epicgenius (talk) 14:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
• with Gothic Revival and Romanesque Revival elements spread throughout. – spread throughout what?
  • Fixed. Epicgenius (talk) 14:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
• The lower level was originally a study hall and has been converted to galleries. – suggest reword to originally a study hall which has been..
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Early history

• paid $19,000 – please insert current inflated value. Similar for other currencies.
• served two years – served for two years
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• creating shadows and pollution – the wording of this clause is a bit odd. I would say causing pollution and something else about "shadows" (not sure what shadows exactly mean in this context. Like, blocking sunlight?)
  • Yep. I've changed this to "causing pollution and casting shadows". Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• (although it would not receive any compensation until 1899) – I don't think you need the brackets here.
  • Removed. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• 12 through 16 Eldridge Street – I wonder if an en-dash (12–16) would suffice
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• Kahal Adath Jeshurun first bought numbers 14 and 16 from Holkhe Yosher, paying a total of $23,000. They then bought the lot at 12 Eldridge Street at a cost of $12,850. – I suggest combining these sentences to: Kahal Adath Jeshurun first bought numbers 14 and 16 from Holkhe Yosher for $23,000 before purchasing the lot at 12 Eldrige Street for $12,850. As said previously, also add inflated values
  • I've combined these sentences and will add inflation values later. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• decided to hire – I would just say "hired", unless there are reasons for his decision to employ the two brothers
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• The Herter brothers drew up plans for a synagogue at 12–16 Eldridge Street, between Canal and Division streets, in June 1886. – would move "In June 1886" at the front of the sentence. Actually would drop the year given the beginning of the paragraph stated the year and since no other year is mentioned, I think omitting would be fine.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• as being frequently overcrowded – something about this phrase is a bit awkward
  • I've reworded this. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• not directly associated with or connected – "associated with" and "connected" to me are similar in meaning; either remove or well, perhaps say "structurally connected" if you want to keep both, if I get the meaning of the latter.
  • I've changed this to "physically connected". Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Congregational use

• take shelter there – "there" is unnecessary
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• was organized at the synagogue – do you mean "was established"?
  • Yes, I do. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• every two years – biannually
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• Jews in New York City, including three of the congregation's first four presidents,[71] were increasingly living elsewhere in the city during the 1900s and 1910s, as public transit made these neighborhoods easier to access. – a rather oddly worded sentence. Does this mean like more of the congregants came from more outer parts of the city?
  • Yes, that is what I mean. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
    • I would suggest rewording this sentence to be clearer if you haven't done so.--ZKang123 (talk) 10:11, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
• a second branch uptown, to accommodate members who could not travel downtown on Shabbat (the Jewish Sabbath), in 1903 and 1907. – remove commas.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• Similarly for ...in 1913, when a new set of rules was adopted
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• for about a year after it opened. – maybe for its first year of operations? Or ...since its opening
  • I meant "for about a year about the synagogue building opened". The congregation was established several decades earlier, and it didn't have a rabbi, either. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• Salary values to add inflated values
  • I will fix this soon. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• During Minkowsky's tenure at Kahal Adath Jeshurun, both religious and secular journalists lauded his work. – Both religious and secular journalists lauded Minkowsky's work during his tenure at Kahal Adath Jeshurun
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• over a bonus that the congregation did not have enough money to pay him – over a bonus which the congregate could not afford.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• a far smaller rate – a much lower rate
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• which, among other activities, helped arrange events and prepare meals – which helped arrange events and prepare meals among other activities
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• police were stationed in the street to control the crowds. – in the street for crowd control
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• buy the rights to a seat permanently – buy permanent rights to a seat
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• Pews were cheaper the further back they were – Pews further back were cheaper
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• many of the congregants – remove "of the"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• who were determined to not have – who were determined not to have...
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• This still failed – would add a contrasting connector "However" at the beginning of this sentence
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• as wealthy members – as the wealthy members
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• in the hope of limiting the number of congregants who left. – , hoping to reduce the number of congregants leaving
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• The congregation was regularly sending letters to former members, asking them to donate. – ...was regularly sending letters to former members for donations.
• as having shrunk – to have shrunk
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• stopped coming for even – ...even for
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• damaged by the rain, and there were also holes in the balcony. – damaged by the rain with holes in the balcony
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 08:59, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Restoration and museum use

Continued.

• had established the Synagogue Rescue Project – curious when was this established?
  • Unfortunately I don't know for sure, other than that it was established in the 1970s. Epicgenius (talk) 17:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
• Also I don't think you need to say "2013 book" given the citation at the end references that. It made me think the group was established in 2013.
  • Removed. Epicgenius (talk) 17:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
• and develop programming for it – what do you mean by "programming"?
  • Basically, tours, activities, educational programs, and exhibits. Epicgenius (talk) 17:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
• The architects drew up brand-new plans for parts of the project – can specify what "brand-new plans"?
  • I removed the sentence, as this wasn't actually mentioned in the source. Epicgenius (talk) 17:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
• the skeleton was that of a young man who had died decades beforehand – the skeleton was a young man who had died decades before
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
• Even while it was raising money, the Eldridge Street Project... – ((tq|Even when raising money, the Eldridge Street Project}}
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
• According to Amy Milford of the Eldridge Street Project, the organization received little other pushback. – I'm not sure of the relevance of this sentence. Unless you elaborate what sort of pushback. But I think this sentence is a bit redundant.
  • I've removed it. Basically, the NYCLU was the only organization that complained about the grant. Epicgenius (talk) 17:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
• were still being hosted – ...still being held...
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
• Due to municipal budget cuts, the city reneged on a promised grant of $1 million – this is different from the $1 million provided in 2000 right?
  • That is correct. Epicgenius (talk) 17:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
• stars of David – I think it should be Stars of David... Also wikilink Star of David. Also note for other case and mentions especially in the design section.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
• Reflecting the decreased demand for religious services at the synagogue, the building was surrounded by Chinese businesses. – The surrounding Chinese businesses reflect the decreased demand for religious services at the synagogue
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
• and reopened in June 2021 – before reopening in June 2021
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Building

• similarly-named Herter Brothers firm (composed of Christian and Gustave Herter), which designed mansions. – not sure if which designed mansions is necessary.
• On the northern and southern walls, there are... – On the northern and southern walls are...
• is not known – is unknown
• was installed in 2010 and was designed – delete second instance of "was"
• made of yellow glass, surrounded by panes of blue glass. – made of yellow glass surrounded by panes of blue.
• glued to a sheet of clear glass, using silicone. – remove comma
• is made of wood and is carved – is made of carved wood or carved out of wood, whichever the meaning
• which decorated to give the appearance of marble. – which were decorated...
  • I've done all of these. Epicgenius (talk) 17:38, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Operation

• After the renovation was completed, the museum has hosted concerts... The Eldridge Street Project has hosted events to attract local residents. – Can these two sentences be combined? Or the organisation and the museum separate?
  • Done (the organization operates the museum). Epicgenius (talk) 17:38, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
• Jaffe had his bar mitzvah at the synagogue as well – I think the "as well" is unnecessary. Also felt it could be combined in the previous sentences mentioning him.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:38, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Impact

• citing the architectural details, such as... – remove the comma.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:38, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

That's all for copyediting nitpicks. Would do some source spotchecking and image review.--ZKang123 (talk) 06:47, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Sourcing and spot checks

• Portions cited by "Eldridge Street Synagogue (PDF) (Report). New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission. July 8, 1980." checks out
• Similarly for "Dallas, Gus (September 23, 1984). "'Friends' rally to give face-lift to synagogue". Daily News. pp. 320, 322. Archived from the original on May 11, 2024. Retrieved May 11, 2024."
• I shall assume good faith for the offline sources. Most of the book sources cited are from various journals or credible researchers with knowledge in the field of architecture.
• Refs 134, 204, 216, 221, 222, 306 check out.
• Earwig brings up similarities with the NHL designation document, but generally are due to names like "Eldridge Street Synagogue", "Kahal Adath Jeshurun with Anshe Lubz" and "the Lower East Side".
  • Not sure if there are ways to rephrase like "Jews from across Eastern Europe" and "the first Eastern European".
  • "on either side of" could be reworded as "on both sides of"
• Compared with the LPC document , earwig highlighted "who came to New York City in the late 19th and early 20th centuries" (recommend rewording to "who arrived to New York City from the late 1800s to the early 1900s").
  • "the panes in the rose window contains thin joints that are not visible from afar" – this should be reworded.
  • "The eastern end of the main level" – "The main level eastern end"
  • "At the time of the synagogue's construction" – "When the synagogue was constructed.
  • Others are just common phrases but it's perhaps advised to look over any similar phrases used that can be reworded.

Images

All photos are under CC-BY or BY-SA licensed.

Putting article on hold until the above copyvio concerns are addressed.--ZKang123 (talk) 10:11, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the review @ZKang123. I've now done everything except for the inflation figures, which I'll add tomorrow. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@ZKang123, thanks again. I've now added inflation figures for everything up to the 1980s. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.