Talk:Electricity meter/Archives/2012

It has been suggested that this article or section be merged with Energy meter. (Discuss)

Yes, merge Pol098 04:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I was linked to Electricity meter from Power Meter. While in common usage the two are the same - there is another class of electronic test instrument know as a power meter that measures RF power. These are available from a variety of vendors such as Agilent Technologies.

Two things. What's up with calling this an Electricity meter? Does anyone use that term? The only term that I am familiar with is Electric meter. I would suggest changing the name of the article, unless Electricity meter is really used somewhere. Second, as to a power meter that measures RF power I would suggest adding that to Electronic_test_equipment

I googled electricity meter, and that term seems to be used in the UK. I've never heard it though, and I would support changing the article's name to Electric meter with a redirect from Electricity meter. --Chetvorno 06:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I support merging this article with Power meter. --Chetvorno 06:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It's electricity...and it's a meter. Keep as is.

AMR & RMR point of view

This seems to be written from an electricity industry perspective and should be rewritten to NPOV. Benhutchings 11:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Punissuer that there is known unknown Fraud done by utility with consumers.

There are various ways of calculating the billing Parameters which differs hence there is difference how the bill is calculated .

-Sand Bold text== NPOV dispute "Tampering, security and fraud", "AMR and RMR" ==

The section on "Tampering, security and fraud" doesn't even mention the possibility of fraud committed by the utility against the consumer. If there are no known instances of such fraud, then the article should say so. Otherwise, notable instances of such fraud should be listed.

Section "AMR and RMR" reads like power industry propaganda: "All of us must be aware of the dire consequences that loom large on the power industry due to [energy theft]."

Only section "Power supply" mentions an activity that would be considered fraud on the part of the utility--"it is fraud for [the power company] to charge customers for the power meters' consumption"--and no assertion is made there about whether such fraud has ever been committed.

It is not NPOV to impugn the honesty of power consumers repeatedly without mentioning fraud perpetrated by power providers, or at the very least noting whether there have been investigations of such fraud, and if so, what was discovered by those investigations.

--Punissuer

I beg to disagree with the above. Anyone familar with this industry is aware of the fact that customer fraud is not uncommon. In the past I was familar with this industry and question whether you can find any cases of fraud in regard to the meter itself. Misreading it, yes.

--66.190.168.218

I invite you to cite some published statistics about the incidence of customer fraud. I personally would not be surprised that you are correct about customer fraud being common, but without cited sources, declarations about it are still hearsay.

In turn, to fail to mention even that a power company might take advantage of the complexity of its meters and/or the ignorance of its customers suggests that every power company, large or small, is above committing fraud. This suggestion beggars belief. We know at least one company, Enron, committed fraud on the largest scale imaginable. Why couldn't a smaller company deliberately misread or miscalibrate its meters?

These omissions give the article the air of a utility-centric point of view. Since an electricity meter is a tool in a financial transaction, namely money for electricity, it's fair to consider the issues of meter tampering and fraud. However, to allege without citation that many power consumers are thieves while ignoring that power companies have ample opportunity to defraud their customers is biased on its face, not NPOV.

--Punissuer

"it is fraud for [the power company] to charge customers for the power meters' consumption"--and no assertion is made there about whether such fraud has ever been committed.

It is commonplace. Even the induction type meters include the power (and hence energy) consumed by the current coil (proportional to the square of the current in that coil - and is up to a couple of watts at full load). The power consumed by the voltage coil is not included. Every power (and hence energy) measuring device has to include either the power consumed by the voltage sensing circuit or the current sensing circuit (depending on which is first in the metering chain). Modern electronic mters may well place the voltage sensing second because such meters probably feature high impedance measuring circuits. 109.153.242.10 (talk) 15:40, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Means of operation

The below material was removed by a vandal a while back and should probably be put back in to the article... --Ali@gwc.org.uk 21:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

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The text below says "electric power" where "electric energy" is meant. Power and energy are confused by the writer. 83.160.128.179 (talk) 09:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

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= Means of operation ==

Mechanism of electromechanical induction meter. (1) - Voltage coil - many turns of fine wire encased in plastic, connected in parallel with load. (2) - Current coil - three turns of thick wire, connected in series with load. (3) - Stator - concentrates and confines magnetic field. (4) - Aluminium rotor disc. (5) - rotor brake magnets. (6) - spindle with worm gear. (7) - display dials - note that the 1/10, 10 and 1000 dials rotate clockwise while the 1, 100 and 10000 dials rotate anti-clockwise.

Modern electricity meters operate by continuously measuring the instantaneous voltage (volts) and current (amperes) and finding the product of these to give instantaneous electrical power (watts) which is then integrated against time to give energy used (joules, kilowatt-hours etc). The most common type of electricity meter is the electromechanical induction meter. This consists of an aluminium disc which is acted upon by two coils. One coil is connected in such a way that it produces a magnetic flux in proportion to the voltage and the other produces a magnetic flux in proportion to the current. This produces eddy currents in the disc and the effect is such that a force is exerted on the disc in proportion to the product of the instantaneous current and voltage. A permanent magnet exerts an opposing force proportional to the speed of rotation of the disc - this acts as a brake which causes the disc to stop spinning when power stops being drawn rather than allowing it to spin faster and faster. This causes the disc to rotate at a speed proportional to the power being used.

NONE the aluminum discs I have seen used in this kind of meter are flat. They all are textured with knurling or stippling in a way that reminds me of dimples on a golf ball. What is the purpose for this fabrication step? It is hard to believe that extra effort would be expended for such texturing if it did not have a utilitarian purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PEBill (talk • contribs) 20:45, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The aluminium disc is supported by a spindle which has a worm gear which drives the register. The register is a series of dials which record the amount of power used. The dials may be of the cyclometer type where for each dial a single digit is shown through a window in the face of the meter, or of the pointer type where a pointer indicates each digit. It should be noted that with the dial pointer type, adjacent pointers generally rotate in opposite directions due to the gearing mechanism. The type of meter described above is used on a single-phase AC supply. Different phase configurations use additional voltage and current coils.

Some newer meters are solid state and display the power used on an LCD. Most solid-state meters use a current transformer to measure the current. This means that the main current-carrying conductors need not pass through the meter itself and so the meter can be located remotely from the main current-carrying conductors, which is a particular advantage in large-power installations. It is also possible to use remote current transformers with electromechanical meters though this is less common.

Solid state meters can also record other parameters of the load and supply such as maximum demand, power factor and reactive power used etc.

Historically, rotating meters could report their power information remotely, using a pair of contact closures attached to a KYZ line. In this scheme, line "K" is attached to two single-pull single-throw switches "Y" and "Z". "Y" and "Z" open and close as the meter's disk rotates. As the meter rotates in one direction, Y closes, then Z closes, then Y opens, then Z opens. When it rotates in the opposite direction, showing export of power, the sequence reverses. KYZ outputs were historically attached to "totalizer relays" feeding a "totalizer" so that many meters could be read all at once in one place.

KYZ outputs are also the normal historical way of attaching electric meters to programmable logic controllers, HVACs or other control systems. Some modern meters also supply MODBUS interfaces to PLCs, or a contact closure that warns when the meter detects a demand near a higher tariff.

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I think the sentence saying it is a "reluctance motor" should be deleted. Can anyone explain why this sentence should be included? I don't see much similarity between an electricity meter and a reluctance motor.

mikemcn Mikemcn 02:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Resetting meters?

I understand that US meters are typically read without being reset- the difference between the meter reading across a period of time is what is used. But do electric companies(or employees of the utility) have the power to easily change the wheel on a meter (without relying on the tactics used by "fradulant" customers)?

Which "wheel" are you talking about? The big disc that is usually parallel to the ground spins constantly at a rate of usually more then once per minute. If they utility company does do such a thing, the difference would be almost nonexistant. 68.39.174.238 04:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

UK meters are read without being reset, it's easy enough for the power company to take the difference between the previous reading (presumably slightly harder to know how much energy you've used since last time though). I think the 'wheel' he means is in the older type, before digital meters. The big horizontal wheel spins at a rate proportional to the power use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.151.120 (talk) 20:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Watts, volt-amps, and power meters

My understanding from this article is that most (American) electric meters are measuring reactive power or Volt-amp-hours and not Watt-hours. Is this correct? Does that mean that our bills incorrectly say that we are being charged for KWhs? If I use a device like a motor or compact flourescant bulb for 1000 hours that uses 20 watts, but also consumes 40 volt-amps, how many KWhs will I be charged for, 20 or 40? -- Samuel Wantman 08:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Try it and find out. 199.125.109.48 03:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

No, electric meters only measure real power (watts). The amount of reactive power flow (VARs) doesn't matter significantly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.84.227.165 (talk) 01:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Add Megger as External Link

12.5.107.78 16:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Megger would like to be added as an external link to the Electricity Meter article under "Meter Testing Equipment".

Megger manufactures and markets electrical testing equipment including products for watt-hour meter testing.

Our website is http://www.megger.com

If you have any questions, please contact Gary Guthrie, Marketing Director at 214-331-7360.

Thank you.

Power Export

This section refers to "the meter running backwards" when supply is greater than demand. Does a conventional meter run backwards when power is fed though it in the reverse direction or is a special meter required? If the former, perhaps this should be made clear. If the latter, perhaps someone could add details to this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.142.90.231 (talk) 17:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

If you have a solar panel or wind generator a standard meter will run backwards. In the past electric companies installed ratchets to make you pay for all the power you got from them and they happily accepted all the power you gave to them for free. Now we use net metering which means that the meter just turns backwards or forwards and you only pay for the difference between what they supply and what you supply. 199.125.109.48 03:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

Currently the text is rather haphazard, there's no real clear "flow" from say, basic description to history through the evolution of the different types/methods to modern versions, etc. Things seem randomly thrown in/added with no design for the overall. 68.39.174.238 00:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

For example, there are separate sections on multiple-tariff and time-of-use metering which really are talking about the same thing. 70.109.157.252 13:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

How-to section

There needs to be a how-to section under the tampering section.

No, It is against Wikipedia policy to have a how to section. I'm sure if you are trying to hook up a grow house you can find what you are looking for elsewhere. 199.125.109.7 02:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Meters for end users

The article neglects meters owned by end users. For example, the "Kill A Watt" from P3 International sold at Radio Shack. D021317c 21:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Added, also added display units that let one conveniently monitor whole household energy use. Zodon (talk) 02:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

time switch article request

Is it possible to make an article on time switches ?

Yes. Feel free. 109.153.242.10 (talk) 15:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Availability based tariff

I've taken this out. Is it *really* the case that the Indian grid operates for protracted times at frequencies other than 50.0 Hz? the whole idea of customers paying different rates based on the frequency seems more than a little incredible to me - in North American practice, there's no way you'd see enough frequency deviation to reliably detect this anyway. Knowlegeable comments, anyone? --Wtshymanski (talk) 20:25, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Yup, it's true. For various reasons, including power theft and government policies, east-indian electric companies turn off power plants to reduce financial losses. When a grid is overloaded, the generators slow, and the frequency changes. Rgvandewalker (talk) 20:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Meter tampering device

May I suggest, Meter tampering device to be added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.100.15.6 (talk) 15:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

DIY Meters

Please include a section on diy meters. An example is the open-source meter presented here by christian wendt (please include). Useful for eg domestic PV systems with batteries —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.246.172.166 (talk) 08:48, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

economy 7

A section says: "Some meters using Economy 7 switch the entire electricity supply to the cheaper rate during the 7 hour night time period, not just the storage heater circuit. The downside of this is that the daytime rate will be a touch higher, and standing charges may be a little higher too. For instance, normal rate electricity may be 7p per kWh, whereas Economy 7's daytime rate might be 7.5p per kWh, but only 2.8p per kWh at night." This reads like encyclopaedic, quasi-scientific fact. Surely, power-suppliers can configure their tariffs any way they want and could choose to supply economy 7 without a higher daytime rate nor a different standing charge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 (talk) 08:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, these figures are hopelessly out of date anyway, so the paragraph needs to be generalised. Dbfirs 12:22, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

KYZ Pulse

We have come to this Wiki page to understand how the KYZ interface works.

The wiki page as of January 28th, 2010 says:

In a KYZ interface, the Y and Z wires are switch contacts, shorted to K for half of a rotor's circumference. To measure the rotor direction, the Z signal is offset by 90 degrees from the Y. When the rotor rotates in the opposite direction, showing export of power, the sequence reverses. The time between pulses measures the demand. The number of pulses is total power usage.[8]

Reference 8 refers to the book on Handbook for Electricity Metering and says to look in the index of the current edition. We have the 10th edition of this book which is the one the Wiki shows when you click on the reference and the index of the 10th edition does not have KYZ in it. It also does not define how to measure rotor direction. Could someone correct this reference? We are trying to find the specification as to how to use the KYZ pulse to measure rotor direction. We have looked at KYZ pulses coming out of real meters and do not see the 90 degree phase shift in the Z signal. Do all meters have this shift or only some?

Rjapenga (talk) 16:51, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I, also, would like to know about KYZ lines. The article implies that all meters have these. Is this true? Perhaps someone could write an article on KYZ lines to which this article could link. Dbfirs 12:29, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Who's first?

I thought Schallenberger invented the AC watthour meter? Trying to find something on Thomson's meter, but Magnets and Electric Currents. an Elementary Treatise for the Use of ... By J. A. Fleming on Google Books shows a commutator-type machine. This time the Hungarians really might be first. --Wtshymanski (talk) 15:18, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

The first AC meter was created by Ottho Blathy in 1889. The story was similar to the Transformer. Westinghouse had to made alternative designs (similar to transformer) to avoid the patent-right problems. However alternative designs were not so precise as the original Blathy-meters. Therefore these american alternative designs have been never used in Europe. After the patent-rights of Ganz expired, the Westinghouse and General Electric started to use the European Blathy-meters.--77.111.183.192 (talk) 13:59, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

The alternative designs were short-lived temporary obligate solutions. Therefore the mention of these systems are misleading for wikipedia readers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.111.183.192 (talk) 14:01, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Was Aron's "two clocks and a differential" meter just for DC, or could it be used for AC too? It certainly pre-dates Blathy, but I still haven't found good sources on whether it could be used for AC. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:05, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

No, It was his first invention, a DC watt meter in 1884. His AC wattmeter was invented in 1889. It was the "monarch" of AC wattmeters (due to its precision) until the digital meters. The mentioned alternative AC designs were shortlived.

E. Thomson's commutator meter was used for both AC and DC, and Ferranti's mercury motor also worked for both and was commerically used after 1885. Shallenberger first invented an AC induction ampere-hour meter (US patent 388003) which apparently was sold by the thousands for revenue metering, but was later developed into a true watthour meter.( The patent vaguely makes assertions about a watthour meter, but all his diagrams show only a current circuit.) The commutator meter dropped out of use (for AC) in the 1890's as the induction type took over. That old meters site is fascinating, by 1903 the little round meter seen on millions of houses today was already in close to its final form.

How did Blathy's meter work? There were lots of choices in the early 1880's - E. Thomson came up with a rocking beam meter that relied on current boiling alchol to tip over a rocker ( a bit like a drinking bird ), but it didn't get manufactured in quantity.

And what killed Shallenberger, anyway? The guy died at 37 and was from all accounts both bright and sociable. My guess is TB, since he had to spend part of the year in Colorado and that was apparently a standard treatment of the day.

And Hugo Hirst didn't get an article till today. Our scholarship is spotty. --Wtshymanski (talk)

This [1]] shows roughly concurrent descriptions of Thomson's drinking bird, Blathy's meter, and some kind of integrating dynamometer - all in June 1888. Before we decide who's won the race, we have to decide where the finish line is. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:30, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Great inventors, their only problem were: Nobody used their electricity meters in the 20th century :) However Blathy meter remained as electricity meter until the digital meters. Bye! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.111.183.192 (talk) 14:34, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect. The meter on the side of my house greatly resmbles Pat 388003 except for the drag magnets instead of a fan. I haven't been able to look at Blathy's US patente 423210 yet. --Wtshymanski (talk) 15:06, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. Bláthy invented the principline, Schallenberg made a similar and patented it in the USA. That time international patent-protection didn't exist. There were only national patent protections. Similar to electric CRT Television systems Zworykin patwented the innovations of Hungarian Kálmán Tihanyi (as you can read about Tihanyi in Farnsworth, Elma G 's book. ( Distant Vision: Romance and Discovery of an Invisible Frontier ) Philo Farnsworth's wife told the truth about modern charge-storage televisions and the inventor: Kalman Tihanyi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.111.183.192 (talk) 15:29, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Read about it: http://www.google.com/search?hl=hu&tbs=bks:1&tbo=p&q=Romance+and+Discovery+of+an+Invisible+Frontier+tihanyi&num=10 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.111.183.192 (talk) 15:35, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

ieee.org said that Schallenberger made the same device what Otto Blathy made

Ricks, G.W.D.

This paper appears in: Electrical Engineers, Journal of the Institution of Issue Date: March 1896 Volume: 25 Issue: 120 On page(s): 57 - 77 Digital Object Identifier: 10.1049/jiee-1.1896.0005 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.111.183.192 (talk) 17:17, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

And yet Tesla spent a fortune securing patents for inventions he'd already patented in the US, as did Edison. In principle in 1889 one could have obtained a German patent, French patent, British patent, American patent, etc. - obviously at considerable expense. One would only do so if one felt that licensing one's invention would pay back the expense. Perhaps Blathy didn't think the US market was worth while. Anyway, ShalleNberger pretty clearly developed his meter independent of Blathy, and the first watthour meter must be earlier than Blathy since both Ferranti and E. Thomson had watthour meters out before 1889. --Wtshymanski (talk) 20:11, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm even more confused. The IEE (IET) is not the IEEE. And what's television got to do with watthour meters? --Wtshymanski (talk) 20:17, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

IEEE Explore is a frustrating waste of time. No matter how much money you send them every year, the article you want is always "Content outside your subscription". --Wtshymanski (talk) 20:20, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Bláthy's triumph

The Ferrari meter the Thomson meter and Shallenberger meters were not real wattmeters, they were just coulomb meters. Bláthy meter was the first real wattmeter.

Institution of Electrical Engineers Radio Section |Issue Date: March 1896|On page(s): 57 - 77|Digital Object Identifier: 10.1049/jiee-1.1896.0005| http://www.archive.org/details/journal06sectgoog and http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F5308791%2F5309105%2F05309109.pdf%3Ftp%3D%26arnumber%3D5309109%26punumber%3D5308791&authDecision=-203 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blathymeter (talk • contribs) 13:34, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

What else might be called an electricity meter?

See also:

• Ohmmeter
• Meter (electronics)
• Home energy monitor
• Galvanometer
• Mirror galvanometer
• Google PowerMeter
• Selenium meter
• Power meter
• Cable tester
• Clamp meter
• E-meter
• Electrical and electronic measuring equipment
• D'Arsonval meter
• Cent-a-meter
• ESR meter
• Home energy monitor
• Kill A Watt
• EMF meter
• Digital protective relay
• Electrometer
• Electroscope
• Amperehour meter
• Battery gauge
• Varmeter

--Wtshymanski (talk) 04:24, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Electric energy meter

The meters in the article measure electric energy. This is also support by Google test

• http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Electricity+meter%22 573,000
• http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Electric+meter%22 1,450,000
• http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Electrical+meter%22 229,000
• http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Electric+energy+meter%22 3,250,000
• http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Electrical+energy+meter%22 2,250,000

Most common is Electric energy meter, followed by Electrical energy meter. NuclearEnergy (talk) 00:21, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Undiscussed, fails WP:COMMONNAME, please revert. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:58, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok, will do. NuclearEnergy (talk) 01:21, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

By "will do", you appear to mean edit-warring to repeat the undiscussed move for a second time. 8-( Andy Dingley (talk) 01:51, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

You wrote " please revert " - and that I did. NuclearEnergy (talk) 01:57, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

No, you did not wikt:revert the page move. You wikt:repeated the same page move again, after it had already been reverted. Then you constructed a disambig page on top of the old page, so that it couldn't be reverted again. Andy Dingley (talk) 02:00, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I reverted your page move, as you requested. You moved, and also had the note "please revert" here in the talk. NuclearEnergy (talk) 02:19, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move back to Electricity meter. JohnCD (talk) 17:36, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

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Electric energy meter → Electricity meter — Revert undiscussed page move. Original mover is now edit-warring and repeating the same move. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:54, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. Andy Dingley gives no single reason other than "undiscussed page move". I on the other hand gave reason why electricity meter is not as good as electric energy meter. Electric energy meter reflects best the world wide usage. This goes beyond of what most appeals to one editor. Also the introduction of the article clearly talks of "An electric meter or energy meter" and that is what it is, a device to measure "electric energy". It internally measures voltage and amperes. From the article:

Electricity meters operate by continuously measuring the instantaneous voltage (volts) and current (amperes) and finding the product of these to give instantaneous electrical power (watts) which is then integrated against time to give energy used (joules, kilowatt-hours etc.).

It is different from a voltmeter, which displays voltage, a wattmeter which measures power and an ammeter which measures the electric current. NuclearEnergy (talk) 02:16, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support Restore the obvious primary topic, especially since Smart meter is covered in Electric energy meter. Also, this should have been discussed before the move. --JaGa^talk 17:28, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Why didn't you do that? NuclearEnergy (talk) 03:26, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
    • Do what? --JaGa^talk 16:41, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
• Support restoration to "electricity meter" no matter what a million Web-spammers are selling. Googling for "How do I read my electricity meter" comes up with pages of fairly lucid descriptions on the subject, but if I Google for "How do I read my electric energy meter" I immediately get pages and pages telling me how to read my electricity meter or electric meter. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:18, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
• Opinion Electricity is a form of energy, like mechanical energy, radiant energy etc. It is not a quantity. How can you measure something that is not a quantity ? You can measure, voltage difference, amont of current, energy, field strength, etc. but not the electricity itself. So I prefer electric energy meter. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

• Comment I'd also point out that Special:WhatLinksHere/Electricity meter (disambiguation) now shows a large number of links that ought to go direct to Electricity meter (the article currently at Electric energy meter), but now point to an unhelpful "disambiguation" page. This will need to be fixed too.

That "disambiguation" page is also not a disambiguation, but a List of meters related to electricity, which is quite a different scope. Wiki disambiguation pages are there to separate distinct topics with linguistically close names (i.e. Electricity Meter (band) and Electricity Meter (Biography of Herman Arons)); they're not there to act as topic navigation like this. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support move back to electricity meter. These devices are commonly called electricity meters and that should be the article title. Whether or not this is what they should be called is controversial obviously, and we should not take a stand promoting either view, rather we should cite the various viewpoints in the article and use the common name for the title. Andrewa (talk) 01:17, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
• Support, they're called electricity meters (at least in the UK - if there's a transatlantic usage difference, it ought to be noted in the first sentence of the article). The disambiguation page is not needed - the other items are not called electricity meters, and should appear as links in this article, either in the body text or in a see also section. --Kotniski (talk) 15:04, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Disambiguation page needed?

The discussion above touched on the dab page at Electricity meter (disambiguation). Do people agree that the dab page (and consequently the hatnote on this article) is not needed, as the other items on the list are not called "electricity meter", but are merely meters with a connection to electricity?--Kotniski (talk) 07:47, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not even a dab page - see my note a few paras above. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:06, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

That being the case, I've moved the dab page items to the see also list here, and changed the dab page to a redirect (I suppose it could be deleted).--Kotniski (talk) 12:36, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

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Research Project: Wattage Calculations used by Power Companies

I'm doing a research project and cannot find on any state's public utility/service commission website nor on any power company's websites how a particular power company calculates wattage for their electric meters. I understand that there are many ways a meter can be calibrated for wattage. I'm interested in these calculations to show energy savings for a new product. Ktuwilliams (talk) 18:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect claim

"... a standard meter will accurately record power (sic) flow in each direction by simply running backwards when power (sic) is exported. Such meters are no longer legal in the UK but instead a meter capable of separately measuring imported and exported energy is required"

This is nonsense. The induction type meter is still the most common electricity meter in use in the UK which does run backwards when energy is exported. In local 'green' energy schemes such as photovoltaic schemes, the same induction meter is retained and it ordinarily deducts the energy fed in at the same rate as any energy drawn out. The PV's microcontroller system keeps track of the energy generated and the energy consumed at any time and automatically calculates if any extra credit is due by virtue of producing a net energy flow into the electricity supply at the prevailing feed in tariff. 109.153.242.10 (talk) 15:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Every electromechanical watthour meter I've seen in commercial revenue service has the notation "Detent equipped" - they don't run backwards because they are blocked from doing so. It would be a very interesting agreement with the utility that allowed credit for energy based on what the PV inverters think they've made. Just because I've never seen one certified for revenue-metering accuracy doesn't mean they don't exist, of course. --Wtshymanski (talk) 15:29, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

It was once common for UK meters to run backwards. In the 1980s there were several court cases against people who made and sold power factor tweakers that could induce meters to do just that. Afterwards later meters started to have detents, but in practice these were mostly superseded by electronic meters before they had become common. There was a big push in the '90s to imposing pre-payment meters for any vaguely dubious districts.

UK rules for solar PV payment tariffs are deliberately simplistic, so that they're not so dependent on metering accuracy. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:51, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

In fact the payments for feed in are calculated by the equipment itself and not the meter. The meter merely deducts the fed in energy at the prevailing supply rate. Since it cannot differentiate between returned energy and energy not supplied, the PV equipment is supposed to do the rest. But now you mention it, how? 109.153.242.10 (talk) 16:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I believe that you are not in the UK. The comment was specifically about UK meters. PV schemes are (or were before the FIT being cut) being installed at a breathtaking pace here. They are being installed with no change to the electric meter, which I can assure you do run backwards without any problem (the installer of my PV scheme even demonstrated my 20 year old induction meter happily running backwards). This may well be a historical throwback because until relatively recently, it was illegal to feed power back into the grid. In fact, it was even illegal to generate your own electricity (except for temporary portable use) because it infringed the monopopy of the nationalised Central Electricity Generating Board (abolished with privatisation). 109.153.242.10 (talk) 16:01, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Aluminum disc

Copper was used in most electromechanical meters in Canada and US until about 1955 by Lincoln-Sangamo and other manufacturers until copper became too expensive. Registers and gears were made from copper and suffered the same fate. 174.118.142.187 (talk) 15:12, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I found one reference that meters contained no aluminum due to WWII needing it. [| here]. I was incorrect about the copper. Being too soft they used a brass compound and it was usually plated. 174.118.142.187 (talk) 15:30, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Your reference doesn't say that either, "have almost no aluminum in them (which was needed for the war effort) - they have steel alloy bases, iron internal frames, brass registers, and cardboard nameplates. ". almost no isn't the same thing as no. Whilst aluminium was indeed a strategic material, it was less so than copper. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:45, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

You are correct. I haven't found a suitable reference yet. The historians didn't seem to think the disc metal was important to mention. I remember the discs changing to auminum compounds in the mid 50s and the size increased and the take-off worm gear wore out in a few years if it wasn't meshed perfectly. Non-ferrous should be accurate enough until specifics can be located in decent refs. 174.118.142.187 (talk) 15:58, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Non-ferrous is misleading. Non-magnetic is what matters. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:01, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

That would be correct. My bad on that one. 174.118.142.187 (talk) 17:23, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Mention those lock-like seals too

Mention those lock-like seals too... at least a see-also. Jidanni (talk) 07:05, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Mention all those factors on their labels

Mention all those factors on their labels, e.g. "Rr", etc. Jidanni (talk) 07:07, 17 November 2012 (UTC)