Talk:Electromagnetic interference

Blocking FRI

I'd like to have more information about solutions to block RFI. Like info on the VCC filter and decoupling. --Toric 07:41, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

How to add simplest electromagnetic shield

A simple conductor mesh connected to the ckt gnd will do or we have to do more for the shielding. u can send me replies on ele.nikhil@gmail.com

Electromagnetic interference

Electromagnetic interference redirects here, but it seems like radio frequency interference is a type of electromagnetic interference. -- Kjkolb 01:13, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 20:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Radio frequency interference → Electromagnetic interference – {Radio frequency interference is just one kind of electromagnetic comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Interference vs. interference

Heron (talk · contribs) wrote in this reversion:

rv: interesting article, but it's only one guy's POV, and he's a network engineer, not RF; he's confusing interference (wave superposition) with interference (bad stuff)

What causes interference (bad stuff) other than interference (wave superposition)? If a receiver is selective enough to pick apart two superposed signals, then is the other signal really interference (bad stuff)? --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 03:17, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Consider a conventional AM radio channel with carrier frequency F and bandwidth B. The receiver has to have bandwidth B in order to receive the signal. In other words, it has to receive all frequencies from F-B/2 to F+B/2. If I then switch on a device that emits EM waves at frequency F+B/4, say, then that emission will be within the band of the receiver and, if it is powerful enough, will cause interference. This might manifest itself as a whine added to the audio output or, worse, it might overload the receiver and cause it to go nonlinear, blocking the wanted signal entirely. This is more serious than just the superposition of waves. Reed seems to be implying, although he surely knows better, that all radio signals have zero bandwidth. His digression about the interference of photons is a straw man. Nobody, not even the FCC, thinks that radio sources interfere with each other because their photons are competing for space.

David P. Reed is a proponent of ultra-wideband (UWB) radio. This is technically a great idea, with the potential to squeeze much more bandwidth out of the RF spectrum than we get with conventional technologies, but it has just one tiny flaw. It involves taking over the entire RF spectrum so that all non-UWB (what he calls 'dumb') devices won't work any more. The regulators are a little bit reluctant to hand over the entire spectrum to Reed and his colleagues, and Reed never stops complaining about this. When you read his articles, you have to ask yourself where his interest lies: is it in delivering accurate information, or is it in campaigning for his favourite technology? He may genuinely think that he is doing mankind a favour, and perhaps if the whole world goes UWB then he may be proved right, but he is being a bit selective with the truth in order to promote his view. There may be a way to express this issue in NPOV terms for Wikipedia, but that isn't going to happen if we just quote Reed verbatim. --Heron 11:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't quoting Reed verbatim, just stating my own understanding in the subject in my own words. In your case of AM radio, there are ways to improve the selectivity of the receiver. Can't it tune out a lot of the whine from the F+B/4 source by rotating the loop antenna? Or can't it notch out the F+B/4 and use the lower sideband to error-correct the upper sideband? --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 21:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to be insulting with the 'verbatim' thing. I like the idea about using one sideband to correct the other one, but you are getting into complex signal processing territory, which is exactly where we don't to be. The point is that there are billions of 'dumb' radio devices, and other types of devices like speaker cables, that are susceptible to RFI and won't work if UWB is given free rein. Yes, those devices could be redesigned, but who is going to pay for that? If UWB isn't properly regulated then life is going to get more expensive because of all the extra filtering and shielding that 'dumb' devices will need. Anyway, that's just futurology at this stage. Meanwhile, we have to speak the truth. This means not pretending that interference doesn't exist just because there is one class of devices that doesn't care about it. Thank you for listening. :-) --Heron 22:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we want to be in complex signal processing territory? After a point, there is more gain from more efficient use of bandwidth than loss from more complex receivers. Look at XM and Sirius satellite radio; they add complexity to the receiver to fit more channels into the small amount of bandwidth that they are allocated. As for who's paying: the people are continually paying for every year that the unselective legacy devices are not redesigned. These payments take the form of monopoly rents to the holders of exclusive spectrum licenses. And no, UWB isn't the only way to increase the selectivity of a communication system. But just to clear out misunderstood words: Do you agree that EMI can be defined as what happens when selectivity fails? --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 20:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Isn't that like saying that gun murder can be defined as what happens when bulletproofing fails? I don't see the point of this redefinition game. (Well, actually, I do: it's to sell UWB.) Yes, I agree that EMI requires two participants - the transmitter and the receiver - but your definition is just pushing the blame, or at least the difficulties, to one side of the relationship, which is just as wrong as the conventional definition which pushes them to the other side. There is an interesting essay to be written about this, but it's futurology, not encyclopedia material. The truth is that bandwidth restrictions have worked fine until now, and continue to work most of the time, and 'interference' means what it says in the dictionary, not what Reed thinks it means. New technologies might make the old regime redundant in the future, but stuff that might or even should happen is not the domain of Wikipedia. --Heron 20:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The "susceptibilities" section now adequately describes the receiver's part in the EMI phenomenon, so I'll leave it roughly as is until UWB or some other tech starts making citable headlines. Unwatching. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 13:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Radiated Spurious Emissions and 2nd Harmonics

--EXo 08:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

EMI is commonly attributed to the electromagnetic noise in the form of conducted or radiated electromagnetic emissions of an operating electronic device, equipment, or station that have adverse effect in the radio-frequency signal or data transmission system in use today.

However, even when not operating or powered-on, an electronic device can act as a source of EMI if it is brought close enough to a RF transmitting device. The electronic parts receive RF energy from the transmitting device, which is enough to switch-on or -off the semiconductor diodes or any die with P-N junction at a very brief period of time with frequencies in the multiples of the transmitting frequency. Hence, this electronic device will interfere the RF transmitting device.

For example, a mobile phone is sending RF signal to a cell site or transmitting tower through the uplink channels of the local GSM900 system. Then its charger is also held near the phone during the call. The semiconductor parts are positively-biased, very briefly depending on the radiated spurious emissions or signal coming from the mobile phone. They switch-on and off at 1800MHz, 2700MHz, etc. Worse still, when GSM1800 is also used in the location the charger affects that system.

The user may not notice any difference because most chargers are designed and produced with the requirements for limited radiated spurious emissions and 2nd harmonics are met. Most products are in compliance with the RF standards set by international organizations and governments.

Removal of redundant and unsourced additions

Since it is redundant and unsourced, I have moved this material out of article space and onto Talk. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

EMI/RFI Sources. The sources of EMI/RFI can be broadly classified as Natural sources and Man-made Sources.Natural sources can be further classified into terrestrial and extra-terrestrial. The commonest example of terrestrial natural source is lightning. The effects of a lightning strike can be more benign like the familiar crackle on the radio. It can also be destructive wherein the surge currents due to lightning can result in burnout of components and total destruction of systems. Other example is Electro Static Discharge or ESD. Materials can accumulate a static charge because of friction (this phenomenon is called as the Tribo-electric Effect i.e. generation of electrical charge due to friction). It is also common for the human body to accumulate charge due to friction of the skin with clothing. When such a charged operator touches a sensitive equipment an ESD event occurs. The discharge can cause damage to the equipment. Extra-terrestrial sources can include the Sun, Radio-stars (called Pulsars) or other galactic sources. Man-Made sources can be classified as Intentional and Un-intentional sources. In case of intentional sources, the intention is to generate RF energy say for communication (e.g. mobile phone) or carrying out certain process on material (induction heaters, microwave ovens) or for medical applications (e.g. diathermy). Whilst in case of un-intentional sources, the intention is NOT to generate RF energy, but is inadvertently generated. The commonest example is a SMPS where the intention is to convert voltage from AC to DC and to keep the transformer size small. This involves up-converting the 50/60Hz AC to higher frequencies and in doing so RF energy or EMI is inadvertently generated. Other examples of unintentional sources are motor drives, thyristor converters, dc-dc converters etc. - Originally added by User:Chetankathalay.

Scope of article

The article on electromagnetic compatibility gives a much broader (and more correct) description of EMI than is discussed here. I think this arcticle should be restructured and expanded acccordingly. Any objections? -- Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I think electromagnetic compatibility is a very well done article. Thanks for volunteering the much needed improvements here. LuckyLouie (talk) 14:38, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Problematic last sentence in the first section

"If EMI for electronics or astronomy is reduced so is happened to RFI. (EMI/RFI in Roumanian language, 2005 - 2009)."

I cannot make sense of this sentence or even what I assume is a reference in parentheses. Would someone fix this problem?

I'm sorry I can't do it myself (due to Adult-onset Still's disease, my daily fever creeps up with any activity, so I have to pace myself carefully) and I appreciate the hard work of the person who can and does fix it. Thanks! Geekdiva (talk) 09:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

satallite and microwave link interferance

i want to know the effect of satellite waves in my microwave point to point link —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.239.5.4 (talk) 17:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Commercial Links

The bottom half of this article had a mixture of useful commercial links with information and links to pages that are principally advertising products / companies. I have tried to impartially remove those with little information content and a more commercial bias. I can see that this could be a contentious issue, if there are any concerns, please feel free to revert, replace or get in touch.Roggg (talk) 10:27, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Agree. Glrx (talk) 15:19, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

EMI Manufacturers

Should I understand this title as "companies which produce Electromagnetic interference"? :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.10.154.145 (talk) 09:05, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

• I agree that it was unclear, moreover these companies seem to be normal semiconductor producers, of which there are much more. So I don't see the relevance either and I've removed the section. anoko_moonlight (talk) 21:45, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Integrated circuits tend to demodulate high-frequency carrier signals

This is rather misleading. The key is that something non-linear is acting as a Detector. It's not just an Integrated circuit, but any non linear device. eg The Cats-Whisker detector in your grandfather's Crystal Set radio. I've edited out the technical errors and bad grammar.119.18.11.19 (talk) 07:26, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposing merge of EMC Problem

I suggest that EMC_problem_(excessive_field_strength) is merged with this article.

"EMC problem" is a useful article title. One can suffer from an EMC Problem, similar to a Health Problem, a Hearing Problem or a Wild Animal Problem, but this doesn't mean these need their own pages.

Thomasonline (talk) 10:04, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

It's unclear why the proposal is to merge to Electromagnetic interference rather than Electromagnetic compatibility (EMC), as these are different concepts. Given this, and the lack of support over almost 3 years, I'll close this proposal. I'll link from the EMC page; I'm neutral on whether a merge to the new target is actually necessary. Klbrain (talk) 11:14, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

References

There is rather a long list of references on the Wiki EMI page, some very specialist. I suggest that this list should be rationalised if possible and that a good text book on the subject of EMI be used for the majority of the references. For example 'EMC for Product Designers' (EMC= Electromagnetic Compatibility) by Ted Williams is regarded as a bible in the EMI field in the UK. It covers the subject from a high level and also technical depth. It is also clear and concise. I know this is sacrilege but I really don't think for a specialist field like EMI that the OED should be used as a reference; it's too general. CPES (talk) 05:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Electromagnetic/Electrostatic/conducted EMI

It is unfortunate that the term EMI is misleading as there a three fundamental forms of unwanted coupling (which is what EMI is all about): Electromagnetic, Electrostatic, and Conducted. This is a fundamental and important aspect but the difference between Electromagnetic and Electrostatic especially is not made clear to the average reader in this Wiki article. CPES (talk) 05:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Comments on the article

1. The article says "On integrated circuits, important means of reducing EMI are: the use of bypass or decoupling capacitors on each active device (connected across the power supply, as close to the device as possible), rise time control of high-speed signals using series resistors, and IC power supply pin filtering. Shielding is usually a last resort after other techniques have failed, because of the added expense of shielding components such as conductive gaskets."

The article does not gives a practical example for filtering EMI. I would be nice to clarify the practical aspects and add a section with a simple schematic that explains how you filter out a signal that goes in the input of a device such as, for instance, a DC/DC converter. My understanding is that EMI filtering can be done with a combination of inductions in addition to capacitors.

2. The article mentions "Such software can find samples in time, frequency or time-frequence space that are contaminated by an interfering source".

It's not clear to me if "time-frequence" should be "time-frequency" but, even if it just makes sense to me to write "time, frequency or both".

ICE77 (talk) 02:54, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Alleged decline in signal quality, weasel words in source

The statement is in the 7th paragraph of the section "Interference to consumer devices," specifically that "[r]adio frequency signal quality has declined throughout the 21st century by roughly one decibel per year as the spectrum becomes increasingly crowded." However, the article cited buries the claim in weasel words. The phrasing there is "Some industry experts reckon that, since 2001, radio frequency signal quality has been falling by about 1dB each year," followed by "That aforementioned 1dB per year drop means, folk in the business say, carriers need to roll out 14 per cent more base-stations to make up the loss." I haven't been able to find a single additional source to back this up, and, given language such as "some industry experts reckon" and "folks in the business say," I find it hard to consider it a verifiable claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pbtflakes (talk • contribs) 01:49, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

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nice interference images from European TWDR

There are some nice interference images from European TWDR due to 5GHz wifi in the references. (e.g. page 7 of [1]) It should be easily relatable by readers as most people have seen Doppler weather radar images. I cannot find a free image on the internet. If someone with access can publish one to Commons, that would be great. --Voidvector (talk) 09:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Nevermind, found one here --Voidvector (talk) 10:25, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Example video is of absurd length

It's 14.5 hours long. A short clip demonstrating the worst of the interference would be far more useful. Imagine someone watching the entire thing, lol. LesbianTiamat (talk) 04:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Not sure which link it is, but feel free to delete it. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)