Talk:Eleison

Latin or Greek?

I've reverted the reversion re: whether this is Greek or Latin. My view is that while this is from Greek, that is an etymological consideration relating to how the word came to be used in Latin, not the actual language in which the words being disambiguated are found ("kyrie" fits the same category). These words, in every case given in the disambiguation, are part of Latin texts. And are genuinely Latin words that are sourced originally from the Greek. But are nevertheless used as Latin words both syntactically (Kyrie Eleison, not ἐλέησόν με κύριε as in the LXX) and in their pronunciation which differs in Latin vs. Greek. Happy to be corrected though. Tojasonharris (talk) 10:11, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

You might try reading Kyrie eleison before claiming that this is a Latin word with a different pronunciation than (modern) Greek. This argument makes as much sense as saying that they are English words because you can say them instead of “lord have mercy” in the US Episcopal Book of Common Prayer.—Ermenrich (talk) 12:44, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I have read Kyrie eleison and I know Greek. Please try to keep your contributions objective and constructive. You do not seem to have understood the arguments I've made and certainly haven't responded to them. Your scoffing and belittling tone from the very first contact has been deleterious to the purposes of this website. Please do not write on my talk page or attempt to contact me in any way going forward. Tojasonharris (talk) 13:31, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

If you know Greek, why are you claiming that "Kyrie eleison" follows Latin syntax?--Ermenrich (talk) 13:38, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Ermenrich: I think I made myself clear. Do not contact me in any way whatsoever ever again. You're a &%#&%$% and I have better things to do with my life than subject myself to people like you. Tojasonharris (talk) 13:42, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

No. You will not be deleting every comment I make. You ridicule and belittle and then turn the tables on me as if I'm the problem. That's not ok. I will not tolerate this bullying behaviour. You may keep your comment if you wish, but I won't be responding because you chose to make this about your ego instead of what it's actually supposed to be about. I showed humility and asked to be corrected even after your arrogant reversion comment. You chose to keep ridiculing me. So no, you're not going to just delete my comments systematically and bully me to not dare question you. That's not ok. And you seem to have a pattern of doing it to others as well. People like you are giving Wikipedia a reputation as a place that has a bullying culture. Back off. Walk away. I will not tolerate this. Tojasonharris (talk) 13:59, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

This is a public talk page - removing other peoples comments -- except for WP:personal attacks is a big no no, see WP:TPO. I suggest you remove your insults right away. Comment on content, not people. Asking a question about a statement that appears to contradict what you're saying is not "belittling you".--Ermenrich (talk) 14:00, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Every single interaction we have had your comments have dripped with sarcasm, snark, and arrogance. I made a good faith edit and when it was contested, made a good faith attempt to discuss it. You chose to be what you are, so don't act like I'm not willing to be objective or focus on the content. You picked a fight. Yes, you know the rules perfectly and have perfected the art of using them to patronise and belittle people without technically breaking them. But you're still the problem here. You could have been a decent guy and discussed the content in good faith. You chose this instead. Tojasonharris (talk) 14:16, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I made several points challenging your statements: 1) kyrie eleison is used as a Greek prayer by Greeks (and others) and is therefore Greek; 2) it does not follow "Latin syntax" as you claimed here; 3) by your argument "eleison" is also an English word since it is used in English in the same way as in Latin. Instead of responding to any of these points you've chosen to call me names and various other actions against policy, which suggests to me that you cannot answer them. I've contacted an admin about your other behavior, and I'm not about to let you make a change as bizarre as claiming that a Greek aorist imperative verb is Latin for "have mercy".--Ermenrich (talk) 14:26, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm not buying any of what you're selling. You slathered your reasons with ridicule from start to finish. You technically followed the rules. You even used the rules to belittle me. I do have answers for your questions. Some of your reasons are convincing. That's ok with me because this is not about my ego, but the facts. But I explicitly told you the point at which I decided I would no longer discuss this with you and asked you to cease all contact with me. Which you ignored. So whether you're right or not is not the point. I did not revert your last revision. The page currently says Greek. I let you win even though you didn't take my points seriously. So no one has asked you to leave something that you think is wrong. That's not the issue at all. The issue is that there came a point when I got sick of being treated the way you treated me and notified you and told you to cease and desist. I didn't even make a final argument to get in the last word. I merely stated that I don't think you'd understood my arguments (which I still believe) and turned the focus to addressing what I consider to be bullying behaviour. So I don't particularly care what happens from here. No one, right or wrong, deserves to be treated the way you treat people. It's not ok. It's not normal. It's not healthy. And you can tell yourself it's not true all you want, but you know deep down that you don't respect others. You're very impressed with yourself and with what you know, and you think that as long as you technically follow the rules, you can be what you are and we're not going to be able to tell that you look down on us as stupid idiots. But we can tell. Easily. And it's not ok. If WP doesn't address this sort of thing, it will find itself under public scrutiny. WP asks for donations from me every year. But why should I donate to be treated like scum? To be looked down on? Tojasonharris (talk) 14:45, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I've read up a little on this at, for instance, WP:WikiProject User warnings and you actually issued a warning template based, not on disruptive editing, but on a content disagreement. One in which you were personally involved. So that goes beyond following the rules into actually misusing them. All the while you were ridiculing my views in the content disagreement. I find WP to be very difficult to navigate and learn and after many years am still a relative newbie. But when I come across people like you here, I think of this. The paperwork says WP values normal editors. People like you don't though. You view this as your space. You view yourself as the boss. And you resent anyone who dares suggest something could be improved. That's just not in line with the purpose or values of this website. Tojasonharris (talk) 15:38, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I've spent several hours now reading up on all sorts of policy stuff. It's perfectly mind-boggling and I've got only the most tenuous grasp of the big picture. It's clear to me that your approach systematically violates the rules, but pointing it out is also against the rules it seems. It's not clear to me that there is any system of accountability in place. If there was someone I could ask how to go about removing my personal attacks here, I would, but after hours of reading, I'm not at all clear about how to fix the issue. Deleting just the discussion of you out of the rest would make a hash. I have no idea where the lines are between confronting bullying and discussing a commenter. And I'm not really comfortable with editing previous comments as that would be dishonest and misrepresent your responses. I'm very clear that you consider yourself to be under no obligation to negotiate or pursue consensus. Which is a clear violation of policy. But I'm not allowed to say so apparently. So I'm basically concluding that there is nothing I can do to fix this. And I'm not really talking to you anymore... I'm talking to WP, whoever that is. There is no way to win with someone who believes they are right and is willing to treat people like trash to make sure they get what they want. I either stay and just put up with the anti-social behaviour or I stay away from WP. Which seems like the best approach... Tojasonharris (talk) 16:46, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I explicitly told you the point at which I decided I would no longer discuss this with you and asked you to cease all contact with me. You say as you post a giant WP:WALLOFTEXT. You cannot tell another contributor that they cannot post on an article talk page. If you don't want to discuss it with me, don't post anymore.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:28, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

At least you're 100% consistent. You use the rules to your advantage while simultaneously misusing those rules, violating rules, and being a bad person. No, of course I can't stop anyone from posting on an article talk page. But when you put the ":::::::::::" in, you make it a reply to me. So don't pretend I'm trying to stop you from posting otherwise; I was asking you to stop contacting me. And you know that. But you don't feel obligated to respect others. It's a narcissistic trait. I gave you a complete win. You got the content you wanted. Even in the talk page, I didn't make any attempt to counter you or even get the last word in. I asked only that you get out of my life. But you ignored that. So no, you don't get to now complain that I'm talking.

@Tojasonharris:, you can't tell anyone not to post here. Nothing Ermenrich has written here is against Wikipedia rules -- & I do know the rules. The only incivility I've seen on this page has been from you, so I suggest you either calm down or take a break from editing this page. -- llywrch (talk) 19:55, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm perfectly calm, thank you. Actually, I can ask someone to leave me alone. And whether Wikipedia policy backs that or not, respecting such requests is the right—dare I say civil—thing to do. Had you followed my comments you'd know that I've already affirmed everything you said here. But I'm sure your buddy appreciates you stopping by. Tojasonharris (talk) 02:46, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Comments like this & this are not made by calm, rational people. And I don't know what rule book you think you are following, but the rules I've seen followed here on Wikipedia only permit you to ask people not to post on your talk page. If you think you are being harassed, or you are involved in a distracting & unproductive dispute with someone, you could go to WP:AN/I & ask for an interaction ban against the other party. But as I warned Ermenrich elsewhere, going to that forum is like rolling the dice: it could boomerang & you could find yourself sanctioned for your actions. My advice is for you to drop the matter & go work on one of the more than 6 million other articles, half of which are stubs in need of attention. -- llywrch (talk) 17:45, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

They were indeed made by a calm and rational person. Your choice to insult me and comment on me instead of the issue is ironic considering that you're presumably here to address that very issue. I have not only moved on from attempting to edit the article, but have openly stated that I'd moved on a number of days before you wrote this and have made no attempt to either edit it or even argue for editing it since then. Again, you clearly have not read what I said earlier carefully, nor the comment you are responding to now. And if you won't read carefully, you can't comment helpfully. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tojasonharris (talk • contribs) 07:16, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Only one page listed on disambiguation page

Since there is only one article listed on this disambiguation page (Kyrie), should I just make it redirect there? LOOKSQUARE (👤️·🗨️) talk 15:44, 17 May 2023 (UTC)