Talk:Elisabeth of Bavaria, Queen of Germany

Request Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. No substantive objection raised. -- Hadal (talk) 19:17, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

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Elisabeth of Bavaria, Queen of Sicily → Elisabeth of Bavaria, Queen of Germany — Her husband's article is under Conrad IV of Germany not Conrad I of Sicily. She was Queen of Germany for 4 years longer than as Queen of Sicily.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 21:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support If he was king of Germany, she was queen. We can't have them being king and queen of different countries. The other option would be to make him Conrad I of Sicily. But the bottom line is that more people are interested in German history than in Sicilian. Kauffner (talk) 04:46, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support for consistency. Jenks24 (talk) 15:19, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. I suggest removing the "Queen of ______" altogether, rather than choosing. Softlavender (talk) 00:12, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

There are many Elisabeths of Bavaria. See Elisabeth_of_Bavaria_(disambiguation). "Sissi" was the Princess Diana of the 19th century, and certainly more notable than this Elisabeth. "Of Bavaria" is itself a disambiguator, so this title has an awkward double disambiguation. But I don't see a good way to avoid it. Perhaps Elisabeth, queen of Germany and Sicily. Kauffner (talk) 04:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

No. There is no need for both titles in her husband's article so there is no need for both titles in her article title. Need I mention she was also Queen of Jerusalem, Duchess of Swabia and Countess of Gorizia and Tyrol.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 05:22, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Her common name is "Elisabeth". "Of Bavaria" is a disambiguator that doesn't disambiguate. After consulting Wiki's naming conventions for royalty, I suggest Queen Elisabeth of Germany. Kauffner (talk) 07:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Impossible, because six other Elisabeths were also queens of Germany. So "of Bavaria" is after all a disambiguator that disambiguates. We actually need two disambiguators: one to disambiguate her from other Bavarian princesses and one to disambiguate her from other German queens. Surtsicna (talk) 11:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Then Queen Elisabeth of Germany and Sicily. Before anyone complains it's too long, it's actually one letter shorter than the proposed title. "Queen" is supposed to come at the beginning of the term, according to WP:NCROY. Kauffner (talk) 13:16, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I think you are thinking of incumbant queen consorts. No past queens of any monarchy have Queen first in their title. There is nothing wrong with the Elisabeth of Bavaria disambiguator. There many pages like that where there is a main person known by that name (In this case Empress Elisabeth of Austria) and then a disambiguation page.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 14:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

"of Bavaria" is Elisabeth's maiden title and "Queen of Germany" is her married title, so the proposed form is irregular. Kauffner (talk) 16:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I just notice. Kauffner, if you support the propose title already, why are you proposing other titles?--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 02:42, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support "Queen" as prefix normally differentiates a consort from a regnant (just as "Duke" and "Prince" when used as prefixes are understood to be shared rather than substantive titles). In this case, that format would be inadequate as a disambiguator. "Queen of Germany and Sicily" is too far afield from terms by which Elisabeth was contemporaneously and is currently known: History refers to her both as a maiden princess of Bavaria and then as a married Queen (of both Sicily and Germany), but Germany was the more usual title once her husband acquired that crown, and it suffices to disambiguate when used with "of Bavaria". FactStraight (talk) 19:05, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I checked the List of German queens, and the only other Queen Elisabeth of Germany that one might reasonably be confused with is her daughter, Elisabeth of Gorizia-Tyrol. The mother is considerably more notable. Elizabeth of Luxembourg is usually "queen of Hungary". Elizabeth of Pomerania would normally be called "empress". Elisabeth of Nuremberg and is quite obscure by comparison. If you Google Elisabeth "queen of germany" -Wikipedia, the top hits all refer to the Elisabeth on this page. Kauffner (talk) 04:42, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

And all the results your last link shows refer to her as Elisabeth of Bavaria, Queen of Germany. You should have pointed that out too. Anyway, the chances of her being confused with her daughter alone are big enough to avoid moving this article to Queen Elisabeth of Germany, even if we put the other two aside. I really see no reason to insist on an ambigious title when there are plenty of unambigious ones. Besides, her common name still appears to be "Elisabeth of Bavaria", which is what you yourself have shown. Isn't it more logical to assign a disambiguator to the common name than to make up a new name that is also ambigious? Surtsicna (talk) 18:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Her common name is simply "Elisabeth." So this name must used, but also disambiguated. Her next most common name is Elisabeth of Bavaria, but this is too ambiguous for our purposes. So that leaves Queen Elisabeth. This is also ambiguous, but suggests the disambiguated titles Queen Elisabeth of Germany and Queen Elisabeth of Germany and Sicily. Kauffner (talk) 02:41, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.