Talk:Elizabeth Lucy

Arthur Plantagenet’s mother was Lucy Neville

Arthur Plantagenet’s mother was Lucy Neville based on the following three pieces of evidence. He was the Godson of William Fitzalan Earl of Arundel, his mother’s name was “Lucy,” he was “cousin” to Margaret Pole Countess of Salisbury. It can be deduced that he was step-brother of William FitzWilliam, 1st Earl of Southampton,They were both esquire of the body of Henry VIII)

Arguments that Lord Maltravers Earl of Arundel was a godfather of Arthur Plantagenet.

• 1. Elizabeth Woodville, The Earl of Derby, Lord Oxford and Lord Maltravers were the godparents for Arthur, Prince of Wales. (Note: normally there would be 2 godparents of the gender of the child and one of the other, whereas in this list there are 3 godfathers and one godmother as expected) [1]
• 2. Arthur Tudor, Prince of Wales’ godparents were:- Thomas Stanley, 1st Earl of Derby, John de Vere, 13th Earl of Oxford and, Elizabeth Woodville, his maternal grandmother. (note: Thomas FITZALAN Lord Maltravers [16] Earl of Arundel (1487-1524) is missing from this list) [2]
• 3. Thomas FitzAlan, 17th Earl of Arundel b. circa 1450, d. 25 October 1524 (Last Edited 17 May 2010 Consanguinity Index=0.53%) was godfather for Arthur Plantagenet, 1st Viscount Lisle at his baptism in September 1486 (??) [3]
• 4. Arthur Plantagenet, 1st Viscount Lisle’s godfather was William FitzAlan, 16th Earl of Arundel. [4]
• 5. Thomas FITZALAN (16° E. Arundel) was godfather for Arthur Plantagenet, 1st Viscount Lisle at his baptism in Sep 1476. [5]

Arguments that Lord Maltravers Earl of Arundel was a godfather of Arthur Tudor.

• 1. Thomas FITZALAN Lord Maltravers [16] Earl of Arundel (1487-1524) was one of the Godfathers to Prince Arthur 1486 [6]
• 2. Thomas FitzAlan, Lord Maltravers, tenth Earl of Arundel In September 1486, became godfather to Prince Arthur. [7]
• 3. 1486 Sep. Godfather to Prince Arthur. (Coronation p.340 & C.P. I pp.249-50) (note: There is no mention of him being a godfather to anyone else) [8]

On the basis of the above debate, Arthur Plantagenet’s godfather was William FITZALAN and Lucy Neville was his niece. Her mother was Joan Neville, daughter of Richard Neville, 5th Earl of Salisbury and Alice Montagu and brother to John Neville Marquess Montagu and Richard Neville Earl of Warwick. His son Thomas would have been 26 in 1476; he married Margaret Woodville sister of Elizabeth Queen of King Edward IV. Arthur Plantagenet was styled "cousin" by Margaret Pole Countess of Salisbury who was executed by Henry VIII on 27 May 1541 aged 68. Arthur died 3 March 1542 (10 months later aged 66) [9]

Arthur Plantagenet was born about Sep 1476. (The given period is 1461 and 1475, so he could have been conceived in Dec 1475/ Jan 1476). He grew up in Calais. Lucy was later married to Sir Thomas FitzWilliam of Aldwarke in about 1473 and then to Sir Anthony Browne (Standard bearer of England) after 29 May 1495. Arthur would have been about 20 years old at the time, but Sir Anthony Browne would still technically have been his step-father. William FitzWilliam, 1st Earl of Southampton was Lucy’s child by her first husband. William was half-brother to Sir Anthony Browne junior (Sir Anthony Browne & Lucy Neville’s son). He was also half-brother to Arthur Plantagenet.

It is interesting to note that Lucy’s sisters Elizabeth, Margaret and Isabel had more than one husband. If “Lucy” was Jane Shore then it is interesting to note:- According to the Patent Rolls for 4 Dec 1476 it was during this same year that Shore began her liaison with Edward IV, after his return from France, 2 months after Arthur Plantagenet was born, suggesting that their relationship started in January 1476 when she would have been about 18 years old. [10] [11]

Elizabeth "Jane" Shore (c.1445 – c.1527) was one of the many mistresses of King Edward IV of England, the first of the three whom he described respectively as "the merriest, the wiliest, and the holiest harlots" in his realm, and later a courtesan to other noblemen. She probably became mistress of the king in late 1475 or 1476. Edward did not discard her as he did many of his mistresses, and their relationship lasted until Edward's death in 1483. Afterwards she was mistress of the queen's oldest son Thomas Grey, 1st Marquess of Dorset, (Not only was Thomas, Edward IV, her lover’s stepson, her was also Lucy’s second cousin) and of William Hastings (who was Lucy’s Uncle, 1st Baron Hastings, who would later be convicted of treason and executed in the Tower of London on 13 June 1483. The precise order of her relationships with these men is not known with certainty. These three are recorded in history, but could she also be intriguing with some of the following:-

• Anthony WOODVILLE [2] Earl Rivers, beheaded on 25 June 1483 at Pontefract Castle (10 days after William Hastings).
• Lionel WOODVILLE was a Bishop of Salisbury who died about 23 June 1484.
• Henry STAFFORD [2] Duke of Buckingham beheaded 2 Nov 1483 at Salisbury (5 months later). His wife Catherine was a sister of Elizabeth WOODVILLE, queen of Edward IV.
• Catherine NEVILLE Duchess of Norfolk, widow of John MOWBRAY [2] Duke of Norfolk (1425-1432) and of Sir John, brother of Elizabeth WOODVILLE, queen of Edward IV.
• Thomas GREY's wife Cecily BONVILLE was William HASTINGS ' stepdaughter, suggesting she was probably a co-conspirator. She was the only child and heiress of William BONVILLE [6] Baron Harington of Aldingham and Katherine NEVILLE, a sister of Richard NEVILLE Earl of Warwick. When Cecily was six months old, both her father and grandfather (both William) were executed following the Battle of Wakefield on 30 Dec 1460. She was also first cousin of Lucy NEVILLE and Edward IV).
• John DE LA POLE [2] Duke of Suffolk married (as his 2nd wife) Elizabeth, sister of Edward IV. The title was restored by Edward IV, and John was created Duke of Suffolk by Letters Patent on 23 March 1463.
• Thomas Bourchier Archbishop of Canterbury had sworn to be faithful to Edward V before his father's death.

Jane was required to do an open penance at Paul's Cross for her promiscuous behaviour by Richard III, though this may have been motivated by the suspicion that she had harboured Dorset when he was a fugitive. She accordingly went in her kirtle through the streets one Sunday with a taper in her hand, attracting a lot of male attention all along the way.

[1] http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=4591.30;wap2
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur,_Prince_of_Wales
[3] http://www.thepeerage.com/p10750.htm#i107492
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Plantagenet,_1st_Viscount_Lisle
[5] http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/FITZALAN.htm#Thomas FITZALAN (16° E. Arundel)
[6] http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/Arundel1139.htm#ARUNDEL_1139_19
[7]http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/microsites/knightsofthegarter/MicroObject.asp?row=0&themeid=455&item=1
[8] www.girders.net/Fi/Fitzalan,%20Sir%20Thomas,%20(1450-1524).doc
[9] http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Bios/ArthurPlantagenet(1VLisle).htm
[10] http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/nn/nevill02.htm
[11] http://www.thepeerage.com/p1452.htm#i14515
[12] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Shore

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnstephengeorge (talk • contribs)