Talk:Elizabeth Southwell

Baroness Cromwell

If she was Baroness Cromwell, why wasn't she succeeded in the title by her son Edward Southwell? Opera hat (talk) 18:34, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

It could've gone abeyant. But I also have that doubt, if the title was allowed to be succeeded by a female, and is so in which circumstances, semi-salic or just male preference? I've only seen a mention to her title on http://www.geneall.net/U/per_page.php?id=339954. But if she wasn't a Baroness, then just merge the page with her father's. Konakonian (talk) 18:54, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

This site says she was Baroness Cromwell too. I suppose the Complete Peerage would have the answer, but I don't have regular access to it. Opera hat (talk) 22:39, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Cracroft's Peerage says the Barony became extinct with the Earldom of Ardglass in 1687. I've put a request on the Project Peerage talk page for someone to check TCP. Opera hat (talk) 22:46, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Poor version of TCP Ardglass entry here says of the fourth Earl: "He d. s.p.m. at his house at Booncastle, co. Down, 26 Nov., and was bur. 29 Dec. 1687, in the Abbey of Downpatrick, the ancient burial place of his ancestors [...] when all his Peerage Honours became extinct." Opera hat (talk) 22:54, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

thepeerage.com also states that his titles became extinct with his death, but it also lacks the mention to his daughter and to her marriage to the listed Southwell. Konakonian (talk) 18:45, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Complete Peerage says that William Dugdale invented the writ; the Barony of Cromwell in question is by patent, and descends only to males. Suggestions on where to move this page, since she was not Baroness Cromwell - but will be so called in any description of Queen Anne's Court - are in order; Elizabeth Cromwell is the Protector's wife, but there is no Elizabeth Southwell; I would accept Elizabeth Cromwell, Lady Cromwell if there is some reason to use her maiden name. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Other article titles that use nonexistent peerages include Justin McCarthy, Viscount Mountcashel and William Alexander, Lord Stirling. I suppose if she was styled as Lady Cromwell during her lifetime this would be just the same all the other articles on people styled as peers by courtesy, e.g. William Godolphin, Marquess of Blandford; Francis Russell, Marquess of Tavistock; Prince William, Duke of Gloucester; Charles Stuart, Duke of Kendal. Opera hat (talk) 17:53, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

What I meant was that her claimed title should be included in the article title. Elizabeth Cromwell, Lady Cromwell seems the best option to me. Opera hat (talk) 17:56, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the following should be decisive:

• We should use her married name, barring evidence that she is best known by her maiden name; just as with Georgiana Cavendish, Duchess of Devonshire.
• We should not call her Baroness Cromwell, when she wasn't. Jacobite Peers may (and sometimes must) use their titles; that's a POV on whether James II was succeeded by his son-in-law. This is not a question of opinion; it's a question of fact, on whether Cromwell is a barony by writ. Reliable sources say it isn't.
• Nevertheless, she doubtless was - and is - known as Lady Cromwell, as editors comment above.

That results in Elizabeth Southwell, Lady Cromwell. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC)