Talk:Elmira College/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

Hey, I'm currently a student at Elmira College and I wanted to add some information about the college. I started putting some information about the college's origins on this page; all of the information has come from the book cited on the page. This is my first major attempt at editing an article, so if I do something incorrectly, I apologize. Please let me know what I can do to help improve this article. Thank you! - BNL52577 06:38, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Security/Other issues

I think that it is worthwhile to note that Elmira College is located in Elmira, which has fallen on tough times since manufacturing and railroads declined. I mean, there was a shooting a block behind Alumni Hall over the summer, I have heard a shooting occur as a student there. I heard a lot of the temporary workers for buildings and grounds have criminal records, and one was even fired for being a crack dealer. Is there a way that these things could be included in the page? I can tell by looking at the IP address of edits that Elmira College edits the page to add positive information. Most of the information pulled from the article comes almost word for word from the admissions brochures. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.189.245.1 (talk) 03:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Deletion

As far as I know, it is not officially classified as a liberal arts college.

-I'm pretty sure that someone at the college declared that it is a liberal arts college, and the book on its early history agrees. However, until I have proof, I won't mess with that section of the article. (By the way, thanks to you and the other person who edited the article. It's nice not to be the only one working on it!) Paul 04:26, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

-The college is a liberal arts college. Page five of the College's Bulletin (aka Catalogue) states this fact. Additionally Wikipedia's own definition of "Liberal Arts Colleges" states "They encourage — and often require — their students to take a substantial number of classes in topics which may not directly relate to their vocational goals, in an effort to provide a "well-rounded" education." This is also true of the college and is evident from reading the Bulletin. Skidude9950 18:46, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Pics

This article really needs pictures to complement it (the study, main building, seal, historical ones, ect)! If I could find them I would not know how to incorporate them. Maybe you could look into that.

Terms

Coming from a person who does not know much about the college, though a little nontheless, the explanation of terms is a bit confusing and is in need of clarification.

Feedback

I would appreciate feedback on my edits. Personally, I feel they make the article more interesting and coherent.

Suggestions

The history section could be improved (you said you have an entire book of info), and I'm sure that there are more than just two buildings on campus.

I appreciate your assistance in editing this article greatly. However, could you please not edit it one word at a time? It's a little frustrating scrolling through such a large amount of edits only to see a change in a handful of words. Also, if you don't mind me asking, how do you know about the college? I stopped editing the entry because I've returned to school and haven't had enough time. I plan to work more on it sometime soon, hopefully. Thank you very much for helping! Paul 05:29, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Later

It might be some time before I can finish editing.

?

I want to know who butchered my edits without posting, which is really rude. Wikis are about communities with open discussion. Plus, if you don't like the language, then I just don't know what to say. Read the first chapter of "Alexander Hamilton," which vividly describes the island where he was born. Encyclopedia articles need not be dry and professorial.

That was me. I'm sorry if you don't like the changes I made, but way it was seemed rather too verbose. I'm assuming that these are your edits, and that that's why you're offended by the change. I wasn't trying to be rude to anyone or butcher anything, but the version I saw looked like it contained many sentences that had too many clauses. The first sentence was made nearly three times as long as the previous version, for instance. The first two sentences total to 114 words.

While it's true that wikis are about communities with open discussion, it's not generally expected that every single edit a user makes to an article will be preceded by a post on its Talk page.

It's also true that part of the nature of a wiki is that contributions will be edited mercilessly. It doesn't make sense for one to become attached to a particular set of stylistic flourishes that have been added.

I'm sorry you found the edits rude, but reverting outright is also sometimes considered rude. If you think my edit "butchered" your edits, you might also consider that your reversion chopped away the wikilinks I added to Ithaca, Corning, B.A., B.S., MBA, and the link to Mark Twain that avoided a needless redirect and parenthetical.

I think that the article has become too wordy. I don't think that the geologic history of the region or the drug problems of the host town are so important that they need to be put into the first two sentences of the article. Nevertheless, it seems like you pretty strongly prefer your own version, so I won't fight you over it.

By the way, you can sign your posts easily by typing four tildes (~~~~). This marks the date, time, and contributor, so that other people can see that it really was the same editor posting under LCB (this makes impersonation harder, for instance). You might also consider creating an account so that you can benefit from a personal watchlist, your own Talk page, and the ability to set your own preferences. We've probably gotten off on the wrong foot, but regardless: Welcome!

--Mr. Billion 08:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry

Sorry for overreacting. I agree the geography could be used and I have toned down the language a little. Could you work on rearranging it.

The first?

Is there any evidence for 24.97.210.40's statement that Elmira was "the first institution of higher learning to offer a college education for women comparable to the male colleges and universities of the time"? thejabberwock

I don't think so; I know (and have a confirming source) that it was one of the first, which is why I worded it that way. The problem with the anonymous person who has been editing this page is that he or she has not given any sources. BNL52577

I changed it back, pending the addition of sources by 24.97.210.40. By the way, BNL, try to remember to sign your posts on talk pages with ~~~~. thejabberwock 04:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I added back the first womens college fact, as well as a source. The actual source is a book called "A History of Women's Education in the United States", by Thomas Woody, the link I added is from Vassar's website and quotes that book.

I want to thank you for adding such a substantial feature to the article. It made me incredibly happy. Paul 15:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060302191131/http://elmira.edu:80/pdfs/academics/bulletin0506.pdf to http://www.elmira.edu/pdfs/academics/bulletin0506.pdf

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External links modified

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I have just modified 2 external links on Elmira College. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051124033948/http://faculty.vassar.edu:80/daniels/1792_1860.html to http://faculty.vassar.edu/daniels/1792_1860.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070312090420/http://www.elmira.edu:80/academics/majors_and_minors/bulletin to http://www.elmira.edu/academics/majors_and_minors/bulletin

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Edit warring to insert unsourced POV material

@Skidude9950: Why are you edit warring to add material to this article that is not supported by the sources you are citing, is not NPOV, and includes blatant typos? Specifically, you are insisting that the lede include the sentence "As a result a large percentage of the courses taken during Term III do not transfer to other institutions, which given the fact that around 35% of Elmira's students choose to leave after their first year, can prove problematic." and you are citing this as the reference to support the claim. There is nothing in that source that supports the claim. (I also doubt that it's true anyway because condensed terms - e.g., summer courses, winter courses - are extremely common at most U.S. institutions.)

You are also insisting that a paragraph about a 2016 OCR investigation be added to the lede . I tried to move that to the history section but you reverted that without any explanation or justification.

Finally, you are insisting that the lede also include a paragraph that begins "Elmira College also suffers from the area in which it is located in addition to crippling debt." That is followed by a sentence that claims that "The City of Elmira is currently ranked as one of the top 25 most dangerous communities in Upstate New York." which is slightly problematic because of the vague "currently" claim when the only source provided is from 2018. More importantly, it's inappropriate to add this claim to an encyclopedia article when you have only one weak source to support such a strong claim. I think you know that you don't have the evidence to support the claim because you also support it with a report about a January 2020 robbery which is tragic but nowhere near important enough to include in the lede of this article. And you're also insisting that the information about the college's debt be included in the lede instead of the history section of the article.

I strongly recommend you review relevant policies such as WP:NPOV, WP:DUE, and WP:EW. Your edits violate all of those policies and guidelines especially when you insist on making them without any discussion or justification despite the objections of other editors. ElKevbo (talk) 14:18, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Additionally, your User page claims that you are an alumnus of this college so you also need to review our policies related to conflicts of interest. ElKevbo (talk) 14:21, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Get a grip ...

@ElKevbo:, first, can we all agree to pretend we live in a world where Wikipedia is not the center of the universe and refrain from using ridiculous made up terms like "edit warring"? I was simply restoring my edits because I disagree with your assessment. First the source from college source clearly states the College's 35% retention rate. If there are "blatant" typos, feel free to correct those (do you think that perhaps they were included in error?). It is not at all uncommon for reports on safety and crime to be based on data that is a few years old (for example, the Cleary report required by the federal government annually) so I fail to see why statistics from less than three years ago (and an incident from SIX months ago) would be viewed as inaccurate or inappropriate. The debt information is also easily accessible, I was just on the site and while you may have to actually read a few pages to find all of the information I am referring to, it is hardly "not available".

This is important information that should be included in this article. As far as my status as an alumnus (and I would appreciate you not assuming my gender based simply on my screen name) being a conflict of interest, it is not. You on the other hand come across as someone with Elmira's marketing department. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skidude9950 (talk • contribs) 14:21, May 24, 2020 (UTC)

You genuinely need to review our policy about edit warring; it's not a "made up term" but disruptive behavior that will get you blocked if you persist.

I have no objection to including the institution's 6-year graduation rate in the article although it probably doesn't belong in the lede. But the real problem is that you didn't just write about the graduation rate; you instead wrote something about credits not transferring leading to lower retention. Neither of those facts is in the cited source and that's why I removed them. So why are you insisting we add information to this article - in the lede - when that information isn't substantiated by the source you've cited or anything else already in the article?

And why does information that is only substantiated by one newspaper article - I'm discounting the ridiculous article about theft as a credible source for rampant crime extending over many years - belong in the lede of this (or any other) article? If this is information that is so critical to readers' understanding of this institution that it has to be among the very first things in the article then surely you can find more and better sources.

Please point out exactly where the debt information is located. Here's a hint: It's in a file on your own computer that only you can access. And you didn't even bother to provide bibliographic details so someone else can find the document online. More importantly, please provide sources that say that the institution is in "significant debt" and that debt is a problem. Simply citing sources that say the institution has purchased bonds to fund capital projects is woefully insufficient to support your claims that the institution is "plagued with significant debt." Without such sources, what you've written is speculation.

Finally, I tried to correct your typos but you reverted my edits. I'm not going to engage in an edit war with an editor who insists on retaining his or her own blatant mistakes. ElKevbo (talk) 18:50, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

• The common practice of WP:BRD is to prevent edit warring (and possible sanctions) as well as inconsistent article changes. If it is contested it needs to be discussed. -- Otr500 (talk) 11:30, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Potential COI

@Skidude9950: According to your userpage, you are an alum of Elmira College with a potential WP:COI so please note, Any external relationship can trigger a conflict of interest. That someone has a conflict of interest is a description of a situation, not a judgement about that person's opinions, integrity, or good faith. You would be wise to follow ElKevbo's advice above. And please stop edit warring. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 22:07, 24 May 2020 (UTC)